[Politics] Brexit

[Herr Tubthumper]

Can always tell when someone is loosing an argument because they then resort to swearing. I'm saying we have had similar circumstances which you have coveniently left out. We will recover because we always have

We will recover because we always have? What sort of argument is that? If anyone is losing the argument it's the person who resorts to woolly baseless cross-your-fingers-and-count-to-3 statements like this.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

We will recover because we always have? What sort of argument is that? If anyone has lost the argument it's the person who resorts to woolly baseless cross-your-fingers-and-count-to-3 statements like this.

it's a historically successful and proven formula,ask the Aztec's..

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

it's a historically successful and proven formula,ask the Aztec's..

Thomas Bayes might beg to differ.

 

[portslade seagull]

We will recover because we always have? What sort of argument is that? If anyone is losing the argument it's the person who resorts to woolly baseless cross-your-fingers-and-count-to-3 statements like this.

The economy whether it is ours or others run in cycles. They have upturns often followed by dips or major downturns. It's part of life ane we have all lived through them, even you

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

it's a historically successful and proven formula,ask the Aztec's..

Logically you're saying that something will always happen because it has happened in the past. Written like this do you not see the very obvious flaw in this formula?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Free unfettered markets and/or lassiez faire governance, is the ideology of Tories (and classical liberals), and history has proven many times that without state interference and/or control disaster is just around the corner.

Therefore with the gift of hindsight I am against free markets, and politically speaking I am against free markets. The freedom of labour is the worst example of this because quite evidently not being able to manage supply and demand is disastrous. It's disastrous for workers pay, its disastrous for a government to manage state assets, like housing, education, healthcare etc. Politicians in this country can say it's not so, many of the 17m who voted leave no different.

Therefore my view would apply within a state or as with the EU across a group of states, it makes no difference.

The EU is an unashamed pro free market capitalist institution, its why (say) re nationalising the Royal Mail or Railways is not allowed within its competition laws.

Even when the EU does protectionism, like the CAP its in the interests of the producers not the consumers, and therefore indefensible.

The sooner the whole cabal collapses the better.

I understand the emotional power of your position, which perhaps can be compared to that of a pacifist who would like his country to leave NATO, whilst at the same time unilaterally disarming.

It is the detail I’m unsure of.

You say that markets unfettered by state intervention are a disaster, apparently claiming that the UK, even more the EU, doesn’t usefully intervene at all in the markets. One of the great arguments of your fellow-Brexiters is that state intervention within the EU is far too great and that the UK will prosper greatly with less control and more freedom.

Given your overall position I understand why you are strongly against workers being able to create a free labour market by having the freedom to move around Europe, and indeed the right to move around within their own countries).

You make the point that an inability of a state to control supply and demand is ‘disastrous’. Clearly the government of every Western European nation has some ability to influence supply and demand but your point is that ‘control’ is essential to avoid disaster. I’m no student of the subject but that does sound like a paean for Soviet communism. Perhaps you are right though. Perhaps controlling supply and demand can work. Which countries do you feel best provide examples of this?

The position of left-thinking people on the issue of Brexit is interesting. You have resolved any conflicts in your own mind.

Some haven’t though. I have a friend who is further to the left than anyone I know. He is probably further to the left than anyone almost anyone knows. Perhaps he is a classical Marxist, I don’t know. For the reasons you describe he inended to vote Leave in the referendum.

But as the campaign got rolling he became so revolted by the tone of many of the pro-Leave arguments and so horrified by the rhetoric and beliefs of some of the leading Leave campaigners that he he eventually voted (probably holding his nose) for Remain. You can see why he was worried. Following the Brexit vote, political reality in the UK sees the Tory right with more power than it has had for a generation. The maths mean that there is every possibility that it could retain this power for a decade or far longer, years that will see worker protection diminishing and our economy too often relying on us ingratiating ourselves with head-bangers across the Atlantic and head-removers in the Middle-East.

Many of your fellow Brexit supporters on here have no problem with this. But for a man of the Left helping to create this situation surely makes sleeping hard to do?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The economy whether it is ours or others run in cycles. They have upturns often followed by dips or major downturns. It's part of life ane we have all lived through them, even you

They don't run in cycles. They run in reaction to their current environment. You only need to look at top-line data over the last century to realise this.

 

[portslade seagull]

I understand the emotional power of your position, which perhaps can be compared to that of a pacifist who would like his country to leave NATO, whilst at the same time unilaterally disarming.

It is the detail I’m unsure of.

You say that markets unfettered by state intervention are a disaster, apparently claiming that the UK, even more the EU, doesn’t usefully intervene at all in the markets. One of the great arguments of your fellow-Brexiters is that state intervention within the EU is far too great and that the UK will prosper greatly with less control and more freedom.

Given your overall position I understand why you are strongly against workers being able to create a free labour market by having the freedom to move around Europe, and indeed the right to move around within their own countries).

You make the point that an inability of a state to control supply and demand is ‘disastrous’. Clearly the government of every Western European nation has some ability to influence supply and demand but your point is that ‘control’ is essential to avoid disaster. I’m no student of the subject but that does sound like a paean for Soviet communism. Perhaps you are right though. Perhaps controlling supply and demand can work. Which countries do you feel best provide examples of this?

The position of left-thinking people on the issue of Brexit is interesting. You have resolved any conflicts in your own mind.

Some haven’t though. I have a friend who is further to the left than anyone I know. He is probably further to the left than anyone almost anyone knows. Perhaps he is a classical Marxist, I don’t know. For the reasons you describe he inended to vote Leave in the referendum.

But as the campaign got rolling he became so revolted by the tone of many of the pro-Leave arguments and so horrified by the rhetoric and beliefs of some of the leading Leave campaigners that he he eventually voted (probably holding his nose) for Remain. You can see why he was worried. Following the Brexit vote, political reality in the UK sees the Tory right with more power than it has had for a generation. The maths mean that there is every possibility that it could retain this power for a decade or far longer, years that will see worker protection diminishing and our economy too often relying on us ingratiating ourselves with head-bangers across the Atlantic and head-removers in the Middle-East.

Many of your fellow Brexit supporters on here have no problem with this. But for a man of the Left helping to create this situation surely makes sleeping hard to do?

Maybe if the Labour Party pulls itself back from its self destructive path and starts appealing more to the working class this will not be an issue. Problem is there doesn't appear to be many electable alternatives atm

 

[portslade seagull]

They don't run in cycles. They run in reaction to their current environment. You only need to look at top-line data over the last century to realise this.

So always dependent on the state of the world. That's why economists can predict to a degree the next probable downturn or cycle

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Logically you're saying that something will always happen because it has happened in the past. Written like this do you not see the very obvious flaw in this formula?

Not entirely,what i was saying was that whilst it has happened and is likely to happen again things never last,what has a beginning has to have an end (here in the realm of the relative) (in the realm of the absolute however) no what i was saying is that,yes things will be probably be as they always have,however the Aztec's prove that it may not last.

Think they had a problem with mass immigration too from the EU,the Spanish.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Thomas Bayes might beg to differ.

Thanks for that,he makes interesting reading....

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

They don't run in cycles. They run in reaction to their current environment. You only need to look at top-line data over the last century to realise this.

merely a cycle of cycles & yet more cycles within cycles of even larger never ending cycles.....everything runs ins cycles,even rouge waves at sea..the universe and even the big bang,more than one big bang,yet that is a subject matter so vast it could never be even remotely explained,the big bang is the heart beat of the creator,many trillions and trillions of big bangs..

or it could all be an accident.....

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

swiftly moving on

Mrs May to announce more detail on Brexit in coming weeks ........at last
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ie-ridge-article-50-plan-latest-a7515656.html

 

[BigGully]

Out of interest what specific data are you referring to? You repeatedly use this line but it's not clear what it is you're referring to.

Have you been asleep since June 24th, you're in denial, current data since the referendum has generally been positive and comparitively strong with the UK posting up the fastest growing economy out of the G10.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/5980-pound-undervalued-deutsche-bank-3434

 

[BigGully]

I have given my opinions and the logic, but it does not seem to be able to penetrate the thick, dense, shield you guys have to deflect any logic that does not fit into the sunny uplands of Brexit.
You say you do not see "no end of risks" as you think I do, but do you see any at all?

Look mate, I dont know you and beyond a chat about Brexit or otherwise we dont need to be mates, but I would appreciate it if you lay off the personal insults, as for risks all economies have risks but there is nothing to suggest that there is any current data that suggest those risks are heightened.

 

[cunning fergus]

I understand the emotional power of your position, which perhaps can be compared to that of a pacifist who would like his country to leave NATO, whilst at the same time unilaterally disarming.

It is the detail I’m unsure of.

You say that markets unfettered by state intervention are a disaster, apparently claiming that the UK, even more the EU, doesn’t usefully intervene at all in the markets. One of the great arguments of your fellow-Brexiters is that state intervention within the EU is far too great and that the UK will prosper greatly with less control and more freedom.

Given your overall position I understand why you are strongly against workers being able to create a free labour market by having the freedom to move around Europe, and indeed the right to move around within their own countries).

You make the point that an inability of a state to control supply and demand is ‘disastrous’. Clearly the government of every Western European nation has some ability to influence supply and demand but your point is that ‘control’ is essential to avoid disaster. I’m no student of the subject but that does sound like a paean for Soviet communism. Perhaps you are right though. Perhaps controlling supply and demand can work. Which countries do you feel best provide examples of this?

The position of left-thinking people on the issue of Brexit is interesting. You have resolved any conflicts in your own mind.

Some haven’t though. I have a friend who is further to the left than anyone I know. He is probably further to the left than anyone almost anyone knows. Perhaps he is a classical Marxist, I don’t know. For the reasons you describe he inended to vote Leave in the referendum.

But as the campaign got rolling he became so revolted by the tone of many of the pro-Leave arguments and so horrified by the rhetoric and beliefs of some of the leading Leave campaigners that he he eventually voted (probably holding his nose) for Remain. You can see why he was worried. Following the Brexit vote, political reality in the UK sees the Tory right with more power than it has had for a generation. The maths mean that there is every possibility that it could retain this power for a decade or far longer, years that will see worker protection diminishing and our economy too often relying on us ingratiating ourselves with head-bangers across the Atlantic and head-removers in the Middle-East.

Many of your fellow Brexit supporters on here have no problem with this. But for a man of the Left helping to create this situation surely makes sleeping hard to do?

I am sure I don't share the same reasons for leaving as my fellow Leave voters, no more than those who remained did so for different reasons. I know people who ordinarily agree with my political outlook, but when it came to the vote, they voted remain because they considered their job would be safer. I disagreed with them, but have no axe to grind with them, they are victims of the ugly discourse from the remain side when they also held their nose.

I didn't, as whatever the outcome I wanted to be true to my core political beliefs.

I am one of the millions who were going to vote leave regardless of the debate, I have been opposed to the EU for as long as I had any sense of British politics.

Growing up all of my family were Labour, and strong committed labour voters at that, they were behind the old Labour Party values, not least on the EEC as directed by the likes of Gaskill, Benn, Foot and Shore et al. I am clear in my mind what that means, especially for the British working class and it's not communism.

New Labour and Blair pissed on the founding socialist principles of the Labour Party, and then took a great big shit on their core voters. Twenty plus years on that is the reality, the removal of clause 4 was just the first step, and why one of the founding unions (the RMT) was shamefully exiled from the Labour Party.

You and others on here can scratch your heads when I refer to you as Tories (or classical liberals), but in terms of the EU that is what you are? At best you are an unashamed internationalist who would advance the interests of free trade and its ideological benefits for all participant countries however in doing so you are prepared to hang the British working class out to dry.

That is what has happened with the EEC and now the EU, and I knew it would end this way as far back as I can remember because that is what the labour supporting members of my family told me..........and that is why (apart from those now dead) we ALL voted leave........every man jack.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Look mate, I dont know you and beyond a chat about Brexit or otherwise we dont need to be mates, but I would appreciate it if you lay off the personal insults, as for risks all economies have risks but there is nothing to suggest that there is any current data that suggest those risks are heightened.

I did not read it as directly insulting in that context,however the words "thick" and "dense" are among remains favorites for use against us mere humble unworldly sunny daydream Brexiters...

Maybe it was a thinly veiled and clever underhand attack but i would not say that all Remain are that intelligent either

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

merely a cycle of cycles & yet more cycles within cycles of even larger never ending cycles.....everything runs ins cycles,even rouge waves at sea..the universe and even the big bang,more than one big bang,yet that is a subject matter so vast it could never be even remotely explained,the big bang is the heart beat of the creator,many trillions and trillions of big bangs..

or it could all be an accident.....

You're raising the question of determinism here. A very interesting subject. I have a scientific background and I'm firmly rooted in the no, we can't determine everything camp. That said, it's 21:19 and a Sunday evening, and I'm not really wanting to go further with this at the moment. Shame it's not a Friday night and we're both in Craft Beer Co.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Have you been asleep since June 24th, you're in denial, current data since the referendum has generally been positive and comparitively strong with the UK posting up the fastest growing economy out of the G10.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/5980-pound-undervalued-deutsche-bank-3434

Jesus. I know what you think of the value of the pound as you've been blathering on about this single issue of yours for months now. For once you alluded to something broader than this, which is what interested me. I thought you might have something else to say beyond exchange rates go up and the pound was overvalued.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Look mate, I dont know you and beyond a chat about Brexit or otherwise we dont need to be mates, but I would appreciate it if you lay off the personal insults, as for risks all economies have risks but there is nothing to suggest that there is any current data that suggest those risks are heightened.

I think you've misread the meaning of [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION]s post. His was not an insult and it certainly wasn't personal as he said "guys"