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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,100


larus

Well-known member
Interesting article in the Telegraph on the problems with Italy (which is a reflection on the EU as a whole).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tween-the-euro-and-its-own-economic-survival/

Italy is running out of economic time. Seven years into an ageing global expansion, the country is still stuck in debt-deflation and still grappling with a banking crisis that it cannot combat within the paralyzing constraints of monetary union.


"We have lost nine percentage points of GDP since the peak of the crisis, and a quarter of our industrial production," says Ignazio Visco, the rueful governor of the Banca d'Italia.


Each year Rome hopefully pencils in a fall in the ratio of public debt to GDP, and each year the ratio rises. The reason is always the same. Deflationary conditions prevent nominal GDP rising fast enough to outgrow the debt.


The putative savings from drastic fiscal austerity - cuts in public investment - were overwhelmed by the crushing arithmetic of the 'denominator effect'. Debt was 121pc in 2011, 123pc in 2012, 129pc in 2013.


It came close to levelling out last year at 132.7pc, helped by the tailwinds of a cheap euro, cheap oil, and Mario Draghi's fairy dust of quantitative easing. This triple stimulus is already fading before the country escapes the stagnation trap. The International Monetary Fund expects growth of just 1pc this year.


The global window is closing in any case. US wage growth will probably force the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates and wild speculation will certainly force China to rein in its latest credit boom. Italy will enter the next downturn - perhaps early next year - with every macro-economic indicator in worse shape than in 2008, and half the country already near political revolt.


"Italy is enormously vulnerable. It has gone through a whole global recovery with no growth," said Simon Tilford from the Centre for European Reform. "Core inflation is at dangerously low levels. The government has almost no policy ammunition to fight recession."


Italy needs root-and-branch reform but that is by nature contractionary in the short-run. It is viable only with a blast of investment to cushion the shock, says Mr Tilford, but no such New Deal is on the horizon.


Legally, the EU Fiscal Compact obliges Italy to do the exact opposite: to run budget surpluses large enough to cut its debt ratio by 3.6pc of GDP every year for twenty years. Do you laugh or cry?


"There is a very real risk that Matteo Renzi will come to the conclusion that his only way to hold on to power is to go into the next election on an openly anti-euro platform. People are being very complacent about the political risks," said Mr Tilford.


Indeed. The latest Ipsos MORI survey shows that 48pc of Italians would vote to leave the EU as well as the euro if given a chance.


The rebel Five Star movement of comedian Beppe Grillo has not faded away, and Mr Grillo is still calling for debt default and a restoration of the Italian lira to break out of the German mercantilist grip (as he sees it). His party leads the national polls at 28pc, and looks poised to take Rome in municipal elections next month.


The rising star on the Italian Right, the Northern League's Matteo Salvini, told me at a forum in Pescara that the euro was "a crime against humanity" - no less - which gives you some idea of where this political debate is going.


The official unemployment rate is 11.4pc. That is deceptively low. The European Commission says a further 12pc have dropped out of the data, three times the average EU for discouraged workers.


The youth jobless rate is 65pc in Calabria, 56pc in Sicily, and 53pc in Campania, despite an exodus of 100,000 a year from the Mezzogiorno - often in the direction of London.


The research institute SVIMEZ says the birth rate in these former Bourbon territories is the lowest since 1862, when the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in Naples began collecting data. Pauperisation is roughly comparable to that in Greece. Industrial output has dropped by 35pc since 2008, and investment by 59pc.


SVIMEZ warns that the downward spiral is turning a cyclical crisis into a "permanent state of underdevelopment". In short, southern Italy is close to social collapse, and there is precious little that premier Renzi can do about it without reclaiming Italian economic sovereignty.


The story of Italy's disastrous ordeal with the euro is long and complex. The country had a large trade surplus with Germany in the mid-1990s, before the exchange rates were fixed in perpetuity. Those were the days when it could still devalue its way back to viability, much to the irritation of the German chambers of commerce.


Suffice to say that Italy lost 30pc in unit labour cost competitiveness against Germany over the next fifteen years, in part because Germany was screwing down wages to steal a march on others, but also because globalization hit the two countries in different ways. Italy tipped into a 'bad equilibrium'. Its productivity has dropped by 5.9pc since 2000, a breath-taking collapse.


Blame is pointless. The anthropological critique of EMU was always that it would be unworkable to corral Europe's prickly, heterogeneous nation cultures into a tight monetary union, and so it has proved.


You can fault successive Italian governments, but the relevant issue today is that Italy cannot now break out of the trap. Efforts to claw back competitiveness by means of an internal devaluation merely poison debt dynamics and perpetuate depression. The result before our eyes is industrial implosion.


Into this combustible mix we can now add a banking crisis that exposes the dysfunctional character of EMU, and it is getting worse by the day. The share price of Italy's biggest bank Unicredit fell 4.5pc today. It has lost half its value over the last six months, emblem of an untouchable sector with €360bn of non-performing loans (NPLs) - 19pc of the Italian banking balance sheets.


This is the highest in the G20, though some say the real figure in China is close. The banks have yet to write down €83.6bn of the worst debts (sofferenze). They have not done so for a reason. Their capital ratios are too low, hence the gnawing fears of forced recapitalization and a creditor haircut under the EU's new 'bail-in" laws.


This is politically explosive. Tens of thousands of Italian depositors at small regional banks have already faced the axe, learning to their horror that they had signed away their savings unknowingly. The Banca d'Italia said the EU bail-in law has become “a source of serious liquidity risk and financial instability” and should be revised before it sets off a run on the banking system.


The government wanted to follow the Anglo-Saxon model and create a publicly-funded 'bad bank' to run off the NPLs but this breached eurozone rules. "They basically tried all possible routes," said Lorenzo Codogno, former chief economist at the Italian treasury and now at the London School of Economics.


The ECB's surveillance police has made matters worse. "They keep asking the banks to put more money. It is normal to have high NPLs after a long deep and recession, so the ECB should not be doing this. It is effectively increasing instability," he said.


In the end the government launched its hybrid €4.25bn 'Atlante' fund, twisting the arms of Italian banks and insurers to take part. The aim is to soak up bad debts, to prevent a fire-sale of assets to foreign vulture funds at levels that would wipe out capital, and to save Unicredit from having to raise fresh money in a hostile market.


Atlante is fraught with hazard. Silvia Merler from the Bruegel think-tank says it draws healthier banks into the quagmire, increasing systemic risk. Nor has it succeeded in buying time in any case.


Italy is now in the worst of all worlds. It cannot take normal sovereign action to stabilize the banking system because of EU rules and meddling, yet there is no EMU banking union worth the name and no pan-EMU deposit insurance to share the burden. "We're going to be in big trouble if there is another recession," said Mr Codogno.


"The whole way the banking union is operating is symptomatic of EU practice. Countries have to abide by a slew of rules and regulations but when a crisis hits there is no solidarity: none of the benefits are forthcoming," said Mr Tilford.


Mr Renzi may ultimately face an ugly choice. Either he tells the EU authorities to go to Hell, or he stands by helpless as the Italian banking sytem implodes and the country spins into sovereign insolvency.


Italy is not Greece. It cannot be crushed into submission. Besides, the 'poteri forti' of Italian industry whisper in your ear these days that ejection from the euro might not be so awful after all.


In fact it might be the only way to avert a catastrophic deindustrialization of their country before it is too late.

*********************


As I've mentioned several times, the EU/EURO is not fit for purpose. It's causing wide-spread damage to the working class across huge parts of the continent. It's a political project for the elite to be able to control/take more money from the citizens. We may vote to stay in (just), but there will be huge problems when the next down-turn arrives.
 




Maldini

Banned
Aug 19, 2015
927
Interesting article in the Telegraph on the problems with Italy (which is a reflection on the EU as a whole).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...tween-the-euro-and-its-own-economic-survival/


"There is a very real risk that Matteo Renzi will come to the conclusion that his only way to hold on to power is to go into the next election on an openly anti-euro platform. People are being very complacent about the political risks," said Mr Tilford.


Indeed. The latest Ipsos MORI survey shows that 48pc of Italians would vote to leave the EU as well as the euro if given a chance.

If we vote out that's the EU well and truly finished. Countries like Italy will take note that an important member like the UK has left and that will give them the courage to do so however I think even without that considering Italy's problems they will leave.
 






Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
I know you do, and it's why you are young or naive (probably both). Your veneration of the city, bankers and all their associated instruments was the approach taken by Govts like the Labour Govt under Blair and Brown which ultimately crashed the economies of many countries back in 2007.

It's your deferential attitude to the Golden Egg capitalists that would End up Knighting fools like Fred Goodwin and others like Phillip Green, and yet we can understand how these people operate, and quite how that benefits the poor.

In summary austerity, such as that in Greece, is largely the poor paying for the mistakes and excess of the corporate rich. Countries like Greece and Portugal are seeing their workers rights diminished, pay cut, public services reduce, and national assets privatised. It's why France today is having a no confidence vote in its Government.

All this pain suffered by the working class to save the banks and institutions like Goldman Sachs who acted irresponsibly.

So why should I or anyone else accept THEIR visions and predictions on what is in MY interest........they have been woefully wrong before.

But he didn't venerate the City! He simply said they pay a lot of tax and support a raft of associated enterprises. I can't speak for anyone else, but you, me and 5ways probably all wish that the UK economy wasn't so dependant on the City and financial services. But that's how it is for the moment and to disregard serious damage to that industry because the likes of Goldman Sachs pee you off looked seriously like machine-gunning yourself in the foot.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,708
The Fatherland
Talk about naïve! You seem to lay the whole blame for the 2008 crash at the feet of Blair and Brown. Ignore the fact that deregulation of the banks was started in the 80s by the Tories. Ignore the fact the catalyst was the irresponsible sub prime lending in the states. Ignore the fact that in the years leading up to the crash the Tories were for even more deregulation of the finance sector.

What is incredible even more naïve is your believe that the institutions you castigate won't have more say over what happens than you if we did come out of the EU. The rich vested interests that support and fund the Tory party will have far more input into policy than the working class mug on the street!

A number of us gave up reading his nonsense some time ago :wink:
 


larus

Well-known member
But he didn't venerate the City! He simply said they pay a lot of tax and support a raft of associated enterprises. I can't speak for anyone else, but you, me and 5ways probably all wish that the UK economy wasn't so dependant on the City and financial services. But that's how it is for the moment and to disregard serious damage to that industry because the likes of Goldman Sachs pee you off looked seriously like machine-gunning yourself in the foot.

But when the EURO was being discussed in this country, we were given exactly the same scare stories. If we don't join, the city will loose influence, firms will relocate to Brussels/Frankfurt/Paris. I didn't buy it then (and it never happened, the City 'expanded'), and I sure don't buy it now. This is an agenda for the elite; they want to make it easier to control and gradually remove democracy. Extreme views - not really. Look at what happened in Ireland (forced to vote again until they get the right answer). Italy - technocratic government installed when they weren't toeing the EU line, Greece - won't even bother discussing the pathetic handling of Greece with 50% youth unemployment.

Wake up - ignore the propaganda from those with a vested interest to govern.
 


5ways

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2012
2,217
But when the EURO was being discussed in this country, we were given exactly the same scare stories. If we don't join, the city will loose influence, firms will relocate to Brussels/Frankfurt/Paris. I didn't buy it then (and it never happened, the City 'expanded'), and I sure don't buy it now. This is an agenda for the elite; they want to make it easier to control and gradually remove democracy. Extreme views - not really. Look at what happened in Ireland (forced to vote again until they get the right answer). Italy - technocratic government installed when they weren't toeing the EU line, Greece - won't even bother discussing the pathetic handling of Greece with 50% youth unemployment.

Wake up - ignore the propaganda from those with a vested interest to govern.

The City incredibly became the trading centre for Euros. This is great. Yet we were never talking about leaving the EU entirely. The jobs associated with just the moving of euro-denominated securities out of London is up at 100k jobs, according to the chief exec of the London Stock Exchange. This isn't a scare story, we can't expect to clear Euros if we are not in the European Union. Would we allow the centre for Sterling to be in Frankfurt?! Absolutely not.

I don't care about the rest of it that is 10s of thousands of high paying jobs that fund schools, hospitals and police in this country. It is an alarming amount of revenue to lose. Osborne said in total it will be a lost tax revenue of 36 billion by 2030. That is 36 billion that is lost from your services and will have to be made up by tax increases on you. By voluntarily making our economy smaller that shortfall has to come from somewhere else, us, so you shift a greater share of the tax burden from the richer to the poorer. Fantastic.
 
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larus

Well-known member
The City incredibly became the trading centre for Euros. This is great. Yet we were never talking about leaving the EU entirely. The jobs associated with just the moving of euro-denominated securities out of London is up at 100k jobs, according to the chief exec of the London Stock Exchange. This isn't a scare story, we can't expect to clear Euros if we are not in the European Union. Would we allow the centre for Sterling to be in Frankfurt?! Absolutely not.

I don't care about the rest of it that is 10s of thousands of high paying jobs that fund schools, hospitals and police in this country. It is an alarming amount of revenue to lose. Osborne said in total it will be a lost tax revenue of 36 billion by 2030. That is 36 billion that is lost from your services and will have to be made up by tax increases on you. By voluntarily making our economy smaller that shortfall has to come from somewhere else, us, so you shift a greater share of the tax burden from the richer to the poorer. Fantastic.

I'd put as much faith in that as in the same arguments that :
1. We have as much control over our borders inside and outside. Assuming there is a Brexit and we adopt the same terms as Norway (i.e. have allow access from other EU countries), then we would have control over benefit entitlements.
2. Brexit increased the chances of WAR. Really - how f****ing desperate must they be.

You obviously believe everything that those with vested interests tell you and that's your choice. I prefer to look at the evidence of the EU and think that it just doesn't work. After all, it's NEVER had it's accounts signed off - doesn't exactly inspire confidence does it?
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
4,887
Talk about naïve! You seem to lay the whole blame for the 2008 crash at the feet of Blair and Brown. Ignore the fact that deregulation of the banks was started in the 80s by the Tories. Ignore the fact the catalyst was the irresponsible sub prime lending in the states. Ignore the fact that in the years leading up to the crash the Tories were for even more deregulation of the finance sector.

What is incredible even more naïve is your believe that the institutions you castigate won't have more say over what happens than you if we did come out of the EU. The rich vested interests that support and fund the Tory party will have far more input into policy than the working class mug on the street!


Ha, listen to yourself......read Gordon Brown's Mansion House speeches, especially the one in 2006 where he congratulated himself on ignoring advice to keep a light touch regulatory regime, read about Balls apology for not regulating the banks, check out the praise they showered on Fred Goodwin for creating the world's biggest bank RBS, read how their patronage enabled RBS to buy ABN AMRO when all the signs was that it was financial suicide.

Now we have different politicians and their different banker mates telling us that life in the EU is wonderful despite the mess they created by mismanaging the euro, rolling out billions of pounds in QE etc.

In the meantime there is catastrophic unemployment, erosion of workers rights, nationalisation of state assets and grinding austerity for the poor.

So who are we going to believe, the same unholy alliance of politicians, bankers and big business capitalists?

And you call me naive..........you are as priceless as you are gormless.
 


Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
I'd put as much faith in that as in the same arguments that :
1. We have as much control over our borders inside and outside. Assuming there is a Brexit and we adopt the same terms as Norway (i.e. have allow access from other EU countries), then we would have control over benefit entitlements.
2. Brexit increased the chances of WAR. Really - how f****ing desperate must they be.

You obviously believe everything that those with vested interests tell you and that's your choice. I prefer to look at the evidence of the EU and think that it just doesn't work. After all, it's NEVER had it's accounts signed off - doesn't exactly inspire confidence does it?

Regarding the accounts never being signed off, the truth is not exactly as Boris says and others repeat. The European Court of Auditors in fact signed off the 2014 accounts as reliable—something it's done for every set of figures since 2007.

When the ECA signs off the accounts, it's saying that they were prepared according to international standards, and present a "true and fair" view of the EU's finances.

The ECA is also asked whether the EU received income and made payments in line with the relevant rules and regulations. While income passed with flying colours, spending (which totalled €142.5bn in 2014) didn't.

Overall, 4.4% of the EU's spending didn't follow its own procedures and so, according to a strict interpretation, shouldn't have been made. However, the auditors pointed out that these payments were not synonymous with waste or fraud.

For example, athe paperwork on a bidding process might not have been exactly correct. While generally this is a bad idea, it's not always the case that another firm would have been able to put in a lower bid.

The ECA said that 22 of 1,200 transactions it inspected during the 2014 audit might have been fraudulent, and referred them for further investigation. Twenty two.

Now this isn't perfect. But it should be compared to (A) the situation in almost every individual nation (such as the UK, where procurement errors in the MoD are legendary, where the NHS alone has wasted billions on abortive IT projects and where this particular poster can report that in 90 per cent of the contracts he's had with the public sector since 1989 the proper purchasing procedures have been ignored) and (B) statements from Boris and other Brexit PR men who say, quote, that the EU has "never had its accounts signed off".

To paraphrase your own line... you obviously believe everything you're told and that's your choice.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,019
The City incredibly became the trading centre for Euros. This is great. Yet we were never talking about leaving the EU entirely. The jobs associated with just the moving of euro-denominated securities out of London is up at 100k jobs, according to the chief exec of the London Stock Exchange. This isn't a scare story,....

it is a scare story, or a gross mis-quote*. there simply isnt 100k jobs involved in euro/eurobond trading, that would be some 15% of those employed in finance sector in London. Euros and Eurobonds are traded across the world, so this whole premise is a lie.

* i would say a mis-quote as the LSE would have little to do with euro trading.
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
4,887
But he didn't venerate the City! He simply said they pay a lot of tax and support a raft of associated enterprises. I can't speak for anyone else, but you, me and 5ways probably all wish that the UK economy wasn't so dependant on the City and financial services. But that's how it is for the moment and to disregard serious damage to that industry because the likes of Goldman Sachs pee you off looked seriously like machine-gunning yourself in the foot.


I see, all these bankers dutifully paying their taxes, none of them being paid via offshore instruments, seriously are you for real?

The one thing you all share is the propensity to believe what the same bankers and politicians that f@cked up the economy here and in Europe in 2008 by behaving irresponsibly and ballsing up a new unworkable currency are now paragons of truth about the economic future.

Laugh, I should coco
 


5ways

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2012
2,217
it is a scare story, or a gross mis-quote*. there simply isnt 100k jobs involved in euro/eurobond trading, that would be some 15% of those employed in finance sector in London. Euros and Eurobonds are traded across the world, so this whole premise is a lie.

* i would say a mis-quote as the LSE would have little to do with euro trading.


This is my source:

"Xavier Rolet, chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has said that as many as 100,000 City jobs could be lost if Britain left the EU in a private meeting with David Cameron, linked to moving the clearing of euro-denominated securities out of London."

https://next.ft.com/content/868345d8-1607-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e
 






Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
The ECA said that 22 of 1,200 transactions it inspected during the 2014 audit might have been fraudulent, and referred them for further investigation. Twenty two.

A few points - That is a very high percentage for potential fraud in an audit. That's nearly 2% of all transactions tested. I've been an auditor and if I found 2% potential fraud in a single audit then alarm bells would ring.

Secondly, did they really only inspect 1200 transactions? On the basis that an audit junior could check say 6 an hour that's 48 a day or 240 a week. We've had a team of auditors in for the last 5 weeks in my company's audit and our turnover is £400 million. We're talking about auditing the EU and just 1200 items? There are over 750 MEPs alone.

Thirdly, you've done a cut and paste from a pro-EU website. The truth is a little murkier. Whilst the accounts have been signed as true and fair, for the 21st year in a row there was an adverse report on the legality and regularity of EU payments. The EU threshold is 2% and the error level was 4.4% or in simple money terms that's 6.27 billion Euros.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/u...fing-for-the-Committee-of-Public-Accounts.pdf
 


sparkie

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
13,274
Hove
Independent fact checker on radio yesterday said that the myth that EU accounts hadn't been signed off for years was one of Boris' fibs.

Who'd have guessed ? :lolol:
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,019
This is my source:

"Xavier Rolet, chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has said that as many as 100,000 City jobs could be lost if Britain left the EU in a private meeting with David Cameron, linked to moving the clearing of euro-denominated securities out of London."

https://next.ft.com/content/868345d8-1607-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e

so its scare story then, sourced from no10. the background facts don't match either way.
 




Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Thanks. My central point was that it is simply wrong for Brexiters to claim that the eu accounts haven't been signed off for years and I see you agree with that. My secondary point was that in spite of this things are not perfect in respect of spending control and thank you for your additional points.

If we do leave, our state procurement procedures will be entirely within the control of the British state which perhaps we agree can be awful at buying things.
 


Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
I see, all these bankers dutifully paying their taxes, none of them being paid via offshore instruments, seriously are you for real?

The one thing you all share is the propensity to believe what the same bankers and politicians that f@cked up the economy here and in Europe in 2008 by behaving irresponsibly and ballsing up a new unworkable currency are now paragons of truth about the economic future.

Laugh, I should coco

I didn't say that all bankers are dutifully paying their taxes. You are once again deploying your technique of attacking people for saying what they didn't say. For the record, I simply said that the City pays a lot of tax. Are you arguing with this?
 


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