[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

And this is the rub of it, what they are proposing actually means NO brexit at all, we know it, they know it but wont admit it.
They then have the balls to try and disguise NO brexit by inventing the term "soft" brexit instead.

Unfortunately The EU and its supporters dont like citizens having views and opinions through votes, they will be throwing as much as they can over the next months to try and stop the majority vote or at least tie it up in legal wrangles.
The inevitable delays can only harm the country and business who want some certainty in moving forward, but they know this and encourage it, they seem to now wish economic uncertainty and downturns to prove a point.
All very unedifying.

But this is the type of Brexit your friend and mine Dan Hannan has been advocating all along, it is not a situation dreamt up by remainers

 

[mikeyjh]

Keep in mind what is happening in Switzerland, who back in 2014 also had a Referendum, which in their case required their Government to limit EU migration. After more than 2 years in "negotiation" (you might well call it EU intransigence), the Swiss Government have approved legislation which would ....

encourage employers to give them and local Swiss nationals priority for job openings, and to advertise vacancies at local job centres before recruiting from abroad, in particular economic sectors if net immigration went above average levels in other European countries.

Crucially, the plan does not include any fixed limits to EU immigration, and stipulates that specific EU approval would have to be obtained before any such curbs could be imposed.

Well done Switzerland - that's really showing them!

An EU official said.....

“We cannot set a precedent on free movement, especially not now, given the UK situation,” said one EU diplomat. “We can’t have caps or quotas or emergency brakes and single market access. The Swiss have taken a decision and it has certain consequences. They will have to find their own way out.”


Doesn't bode well for our own negotiations. Once again the EU happily sacrifices democracy at a country level on the bonfire of their "fundamental pillars". Small wonder a lot of people don't like the organisation.

Honestly, and I really don't mean to sound patronising, it's a shame voices like yours aren't heard more from the (making an assumption here) the brexit side. There's so much hot air and bluster that has taken us away from what should have been and should continue to be a robust and intelligent debate. Not that it matter because the result went that way but it may have helped avoid some of the bitterness.

I sat on the fence for a while, I was far from a staunch remainer, it was the lack of clarity or context from the leave campaign that made my decision. Remain was the easy choice, I knew what it meant.

 

[Baldseagull]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...in-good-brexit-deal-britain-rest-union-warns/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-help-old-friend-britain-reach-best-possible/


And for a little bit of balance (spent too much time on the Guardian website), somebody else who thinks the EU should open the dictionary and look up the word "compromise"......the Polish PM says

Whether we manage to complete this arduous task of bringing negotiations to a satisfying result will depend solely on our imagination and leadership. We need a good compromise which gives both our countries the best possible options for economic and security cooperation.

I think some of the guys on here need to look that up too, some insist we must not give any ground on what they expect from Brexit.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Honestly, and I really don't mean to sound patronising, it's a shame voices like yours aren't heard more from the (making an assumption here) the brexit side. There's so much hot air and bluster that has taken us away from what should have been and should continue to be a robust and intelligent debate. Not that it matter because the result went that way but it may have helped avoid some of the bitterness.

I sat on the fence for a while, I was far from a staunch remainer, it was the lack of clarity or context from the leave campaign that made my decision. Remain was the easy choice, I knew what it meant.

I will take that in the spirit offered....

Successive Governments have taken us further and further into the EU through Parliamentary democracy. And it's naturally a shock when belatedly (41 years) they check in with the public and find out that's not actually what the majority of people wanted. So you could argue that the impasse we have now arrived at is because Parliamentary democracy doesn't actually work very well in reflecting the views of the electorate.

How we extricate ourselves from the impasse is going to be tricky. That's why "soft brexit" was invented, but it's not going to make many people happy on either side of the argument, I would suggest.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

But you do not have any legitimate call on the terms of our future relationship with the EU, as a non member. That is what we were discussing. I am quite aware of the referendum result, and what the question was.

My point is we (as in us, as in the UK collectively, not me personally!) only voted to leave the EU, that's all. I appreciate that to many leave people that means a lot of things as a defacto result, but they are wrong.

It is up to the government, the parliament and the house of lords etc. to ensure Brexit is undertaken in the interests of the country as a whole.

The PM disagrees, she realises respecting the majority vote also includes addressing some of the main reasons why people voted the way they did.

And let’s be clear about what is going to happen.

Article Fifty – triggered no later than the end of March.

A Great Repeal Bill to get rid of the European Communities Act – introduced in the next Parliamentary session.

Our laws made not in Brussels but in Westminster.

Our judges sitting not in Luxembourg but in courts across the land.

The authority of EU law in this country ended forever.

The people told us they wanted these things – and this Conservative Government is going to deliver them.

It is, of course, too early to say exactly what agreement we will reach with the EU. It’s going to be a tough negotiation, it will require some give and take. And while there will always be pressure to give a running commentary, it will not be in our national interest to do so.

But let me be clear about the agreement we seek.

I want it to reflect the strong and mature relationships we enjoy with our European friends.

I want it to include cooperation on law enforcement and counter-terrorism work.

I want it to involve free trade, in goods and services.

I want it to give British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate within the Single Market – and let European businesses do the same here.

But let’s state one thing loud and clear: we are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That’s not going to happen.

We are leaving to become, once more, a fully sovereign and independent country – and the deal is going to have to work for Britain.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...nces/news/79596/read-theresa-mays-full-speech

 

[Soulman]

The PM disagrees, she realises respecting the majority vote also includes addressing some of the main reasons why people voted the way they did.

And let’s be clear about what is going to happen.

Article Fifty – triggered no later than the end of March.

A Great Repeal Bill to get rid of the European Communities Act – introduced in the next Parliamentary session.

Our laws made not in Brussels but in Westminster.

Our judges sitting not in Luxembourg but in courts across the land.

The authority of EU law in this country ended forever.

The people told us they wanted these things – and this Conservative Government is going to deliver them.

It is, of course, too early to say exactly what agreement we will reach with the EU. It’s going to be a tough negotiation, it will require some give and take. And while there will always be pressure to give a running commentary, it will not be in our national interest to do so.

But let me be clear about the agreement we seek.

I want it to reflect the strong and mature relationships we enjoy with our European friends.

I want it to include cooperation on law enforcement and counter-terrorism work.

I want it to involve free trade, in goods and services.

I want it to give British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate within the Single Market – and let European businesses do the same here.

But let’s state one thing loud and clear: we are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That’s not going to happen.

We are leaving to become, once more, a fully sovereign and independent country – and the deal is going to have to work for Britain.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...nces/news/79596/read-theresa-mays-full-speech

That's the spirit.

 

[mikeyjh]

I will take that in the spirit offered....

Successive Governments have taken us further and further into the EU through Parliamentary democracy. And it's naturally a shock when belatedly (41 years) they check in with the public and find out that's not actually what the majority of people wanted. So you could argue that the impasse we have now arrived at is because Parliamentary democracy doesn't actually work very well in reflecting the views of the electorate.

How we extricate ourselves from the impasse is going to be tricky. That's why "soft brexit" was invented, but it's not going to make many people happy on either side of the argument, I would suggest.

Call me Billy Hindsight and I guess complacency was the reason we really didn't ask this question at the time but if only we'd have put some options together to use as the referendum questions. It's incredible, and very much supports your point, that people were so confident of a remain vote that even 5 months later we still really don't have a clue about what happens next.

Couldn't agree me with your point on soft brexit, we're going to end up with a solution that basically no-one is terribly happy with but one which can only be accepted if, as you said earlier, it's debated in parliament.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

And this is the rub of it, what they are proposing actually means NO brexit at all, we know it, they know it but wont admit it.
They then have the balls to try and disguise NO brexit by inventing the term "soft" brexit instead.

Unfortunately The EU and its supporters dont like citizens having views and opinions through votes, they will be throwing as much as they can over the next months to try and stop the majority vote or at least tie it up in legal wrangles.
The inevitable delays can only harm the country and business who want some certainty in moving forward, but they know this and encourage it, they seem to now wish economic uncertainty and downturns to prove a point.
All very unedifying.

Yes it is all rather transparent. But pleasing to see some Remainers talking up the importance of UK Law and the UK Parliament all of a sudden .. obviously just a coincidence they are viewed as the last hope to block/dilute Brexit.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Meanwhile the "hearts and minds" campaign continues (from today's Times)

Brussels has earmarked €18 million to give EU officials a 3.3 per cent pay rise backdated to July in time for their December pay packets.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, will receive a pay rise of €15,543 over the next year, including €5,200 in back pay.

The increase is nearly seven times the rate of inflation, which was 0.5 per cent across the EU, and is higher than the 1.8 per cent rise predicted last year.

Other European commissioners, such as Günther Oettinger, who has been embroiled in a race row and controversy over links to pro-Kremlin lobbyists, will pocket a lump sum of €4,224.

The pay rise will take Mr Juncker’s annual salary to €324,377, which is topped up by an expatriate residence allowance of €48,656 a year, to compensate the former prime minister of Luxembourg for having to live in Brussels for most of the week.

There's more but you get the gist

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Meanwhile the "hearts and minds" campaign continues (from today's Times)

Brussels has earmarked €18 million to give EU officials a 3.3 per cent pay rise backdated to July in time for their December pay packets.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, will receive a pay rise of €15,543 over the next year, including €5,200 in back pay.

The increase is nearly seven times the rate of inflation, which was 0.5 per cent across the EU, and is higher than the 1.8 per cent rise predicted last year.

Other European commissioners, such as Günther Oettinger, who has been embroiled in a race row and controversy over links to pro-Kremlin lobbyists, will pocket a lump sum of €4,224.

The pay rise will take Mr Juncker’s annual salary to €324,377, which is topped up by an expatriate residence allowance of €48,656 a year, to compensate the former prime minister of Luxembourg for having to live in Brussels for most of the week.

There's more but you get the gist

Just another reason why I voted Leave. There are absolutely no excuses. These people are not worth the money, and they are just taking the fing piss.

 

[CHAPPERS]

You could look at our own MP's pay rises too, couldn't you.

 

[Yoda]

Meanwhile the "hearts and minds" campaign continues (from today's Times)

Brussels has earmarked €18 million to give EU officials a 3.3 per cent pay rise backdated to July in time for their December pay packets.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, will receive a pay rise of €15,543 over the next year, including €5,200 in back pay.

The increase is nearly seven times the rate of inflation, which was 0.5 per cent across the EU, and is higher than the 1.8 per cent rise predicted last year.

Other European commissioners, such as Günther Oettinger, who has been embroiled in a race row and controversy over links to pro-Kremlin lobbyists, will pocket a lump sum of €4,224.

The pay rise will take Mr Juncker’s annual salary to €324,377, which is topped up by an expatriate residence allowance of €48,656 a year, to compensate the former prime minister of Luxembourg for having to live in Brussels for most of the week.

There's more but you get the gist

Not really any different to what our own Parliament & MP's have done in the past. Remember, last year they gave themselves a TEN per cent pay rise.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

not really any different to what our own parliament & mp's have done in the past. Remember, last year they gave themselves a ten per cent pay rise.

but they are elected
regards
DR

 

[ManOfSussex]

Article 50 WILL trigger economic pain and uncertainty, writes pro-leave advocate MARK LITTLEWOOD, as he calls for end to 'Brexit blame game'

Last week’s Autumn Statement was dominated by the same story that has overlayed every piece of economic news and activity since the decision by the British people to vote Leave back in June.
Namely, exactly how good or bad will our exit from the European Union finally prove to be?
Will our impending independence make us a soaring economic powerhouse or will we find ourselves in uncertain and choppy waters in which growing our economy becomes a trickier task than we’d hoped?
During the referendum, all sorts of extravagant, elaborate and precise claims were made by both sides about the merits of remaining or leaving.
Certainly, some of the more apocalyptic predictions about the UK tipping into recession the moment we dared to choose to exit the EU have not come to pass.

But there is a real danger that the victorious Brexiteers are now dismissing any sort of honest, but downbeat, forecast as part of a conspiracy to talk down Britain and seek to halt the triggering of Article 50.
So it was that last week, projections by Robert Chote of the Office for Budget Responsibility and Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies were portrayed in some quarters as agents of a continuity Remain campaign.
Their warnings that economic growth might be a little less than they’d previously speculated were rubbished as propaganda and biased doom mongering.
In fact, both Mr Chote and Mr Johnson are attempting to give a genuinely independent assessment of how the British economy will fare in the coming years.
Most economists, themselves included, know this can be something of a fool’s errand.
There are so many imponderables and so many unknowns that the margin for error in any such forecast is very considerable.
But in the same way that football pundits or racing tipsters often try to give their honest views of a likely sporting outcome, so the Chotes and Johnsons of the world try to crunch numbers in order to give their best, but admittedly imperfect, view of what UK growth, spending and debt might look like.

They may end up being wrong, but they are assuredly independent, well informed and well intentioned experts who are in a good position to give some sort of outline sketch of our immediate economic future.
The fact they have suggested that the Brexit process might see economic growth being a tad less impressive in the next couple of years is a reasoned and reasonable conclusion to reach.
It is not part of some Establishment plot to seek to undo the decision made by the British people in the referendum.

There is good reason to believe they might well be right.
It is also concerning that government debt will increase by around £120bn due partly to these more sluggish growth figures.
Businesses loathe uncertainty, and the failure of the May Government to even begin to signal what post-Brexit Britain might look like makes it extraordinarily difficult for companies to make any meaningful long-term investment decisions.
This lack of clarity is likely to persist for a while longer.
The protracted negotiation about how we divorce ourselves from the EU is not even going to begin for another four or five months.
Any suggestion that the next couple of years might be economically difficult should not be rubbished as prejudiced doom mongering by whinging Remainers.
In fact, those of us who backed Brexit would be much better advised to accept that there might be some short term pain, but that this is a price worth paying for re-establishing ourselves as an independent, sovereign nation with the ability to determine our own destiny over the longer term.
Leave voters across the country seem willing to pay this price, even if some pro-Brexit politicians are determined to deny that there might be any short-term cost at all.
The electorate clearly understood there would be some risks associated with a decision to exit the EU, but a majority decided it was a price well worth paying.

Just as an individual who moves house or changes jobs knows they are facing some immediate dislocating effects and costs, they are willing to bear these in the hope that things will work out better for them over the longer run.
So, we all need to be a little less hysterical about the possibility that the British economy might grow at around about 1.5 per cent next year, rather than the 2 per cent or so that was previously anticipated in the spring.
The downgrade is not enormous and it is not claimed to be a certainty.
But if you want to fundamentally change the direction and future positioning of an entire country, you can’t expect this to happen on a cost-free basis.
Optimistic Brexiteers should embrace this modest, immediate economic pain as being natural, normal and unsurprising – not try to pretend that there will be no downsides to leaving the EU whatsoever.
The electorate is smart enough to realise that what really matters is how we make Brexit work for us in the years and decades to come and not to worry unduly about a bit of market volatility and a few postponed investment decisions over the next 12 months.
And it is here that we should be focusing our criticism on the Government itself, not on independent forecasters who are providing their best guesses in a turbulent and uncertain world.
The May administration claims it is refusing to reveal its hand for fear this might prejudice its upcoming negotiations with the European Union.

But this is a pretty feeble and unconvincing stance.
At the last General Election, the Tories made it publicly plain what sort of demands David Cameron would make as he tried, and failed, to renegotiate our EU membership.
The suspicion now must be not that Theresa May is wishing to hold her cards close to her chest but that she and her fellow Ministers can’t even agree on what sort of hand they hold.
Like many millions of others, I voted to Leave on June 23.
I did so with my eyes open and in the certain knowledge that there would be some economic pain and some uncertainties in doing so.
Blaming independent forecasters for simply pointing these out is not remotely helpful or even fair.
Let’s admit that we have chosen to follow the riskier, but braver, path and demand that our Government navigates a sensible route to the sunlit uplands.
At the moment, sadly, it seems unable to present us with a coherent or sensible roadmap for doing so.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...K-LITTLEWOOD-calls-end-Brexit-blame-game.html

 

[nicko31]

Meanwhile the "hearts and minds" campaign continues (from today's Times)

Brussels has earmarked €18 million to give EU officials a 3.3 per cent pay rise backdated to July in time for their December pay packets.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, will receive a pay rise of €15,543 over the next year, including €5,200 in back pay.

The increase is nearly seven times the rate of inflation, which was 0.5 per cent across the EU, and is higher than the 1.8 per cent rise predicted last year.

Other European commissioners, such as Günther Oettinger, who has been embroiled in a race row and controversy over links to pro-Kremlin lobbyists, will pocket a lump sum of €4,224.

The pay rise will take Mr Juncker’s annual salary to €324,377, which is topped up by an expatriate residence allowance of €48,656 a year, to compensate the former prime minister of Luxembourg for having to live in Brussels for most of the week.

There's more but you get the gist

We'll all be needing 3.3% next year too just to keep up with our own inflation...

 

[Soulman]

Its becoming increasingly clear why the Brexiteers don't want parliament involved. Still 5-1 on a 2nd referendum, a good reverse hedge if you a leaver

"2nd referendum"

This is a good letter.

"A letter seen in today's Telegraph... =D

SIR - I am a commercial offshore helicopter captain, my wife is a surgeon, my mother-in-law is a previous president of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society and my closest friend is a commercial director of a FTSE 100 company. All of us voted for Brexit. We understood the question asked of us (it wasn’t difficult), and we understand the implications of leaving.

It may disappoint Tony Blair, Tim Farron and other Remainers, but we are educated people and believe in the benefits of leaving the EU. We believe in our country and our right to sovereignty - and we believe that leaving means leaving. We don’t need asking again, because we will give exactly the same answer.
Matthew Clifford
Norwich

 

[portslade seagull]

"2nd referendum"

This is a good letter.

"A letter seen in today's Telegraph... =D

SIR - I am a commercial offshore helicopter captain, my wife is a surgeon, my mother-in-law is a previous president of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society and my closest friend is a commercial director of a FTSE 100 company. All of us voted for Brexit. We understood the question asked of us (it wasn’t difficult), and we understand the implications of leaving.

It may disappoint Tony Blair, Tim Farron and other Remainers, but we are educated people and believe in the benefits of leaving the EU. We believe in our country and our right to sovereignty - and we believe that leaving means leaving. We don’t need asking again, because we will give exactly the same answer.
Matthew Clifford
Norwich

And when they lose the 2nd referendum if it ever happened they would be moaning for a 3rd vote then 4th and so on.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

And when they lose the 2nd referendum if it ever happened they would be moaning for a 3rd vote then 4th and so on.

*I am increasingly convinced that a 2nd referendum if such a shambles was to happen would,contrary to current remainer belief carry a far larger majority for leave than before..

I think the resolve is strengthening from the leave side and every single little twist turn and complaint to try to stop the UK leaving the EU re enforces the determination to win back sovereignty that is clearly lacking during every passing moment since the referendum..

*the above statement is pure opinion

 

[Baldseagull]

*I am increasingly convinced that a 2nd referendum if such a shambles was to happen would,contrary to current remainer belief carry a far larger majority for leave than before..

I think the resolve is strengthening from the leave side and every single little twist turn and complaint to try to stop the UK leaving the EU re enforces the determination to win back sovereignty that is clearly lacking during every passing moment since the referendum..

*the above statement is pure opinion

I also think the resolve of the majority of leave voters is strong at the moment, in no small part because there has been little negative effect to most people's lives so far. We will see how you all feel about it when the pain kicks in.

 

[Baldseagull]

The PM disagrees, she realises respecting the majority vote also includes addressing some of the main reasons why people voted the way they did.

And let’s be clear about what is going to happen.

Article Fifty – triggered no later than the end of March.

A Great Repeal Bill to get rid of the European Communities Act – introduced in the next Parliamentary session.

Our laws made not in Brussels but in Westminster.

Our judges sitting not in Luxembourg but in courts across the land.

The authority of EU law in this country ended forever.

The people told us they wanted these things – and this Conservative Government is going to deliver them.

It is, of course, too early to say exactly what agreement we will reach with the EU. It’s going to be a tough negotiation, it will require some give and take. And while there will always be pressure to give a running commentary, it will not be in our national interest to do so.

But let me be clear about the agreement we seek.

I want it to reflect the strong and mature relationships we enjoy with our European friends.

I want it to include cooperation on law enforcement and counter-terrorism work.

I want it to involve free trade, in goods and services.

I want it to give British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate within the Single Market – and let European businesses do the same here.

But let’s state one thing loud and clear: we are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That’s not going to happen.

We are leaving to become, once more, a fully sovereign and independent country – and the deal is going to have to work for Britain.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...nces/news/79596/read-theresa-mays-full-speech

Yep, she said all that, and she is guessing too. Hopefully, parliament gets the chance to set her straight about what she is entitled to infer from the referendum result.