[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 22389]

Exactly. Hope we get out before we have to give billions in bail outs as well. 50 Billion to leave, frigging cheek.

It does annoy me so much. The money this organisation wastes is disgusting, again how can anyone support this after everything that has happened.

 

[nicko31]

Well I heard the UK has to give the EU £50B to settle up before leaving. I think most will want to ask what this money is for. May be it's to help pay for the failing EU project, the EU cronies in their lovely offices on bumper wages and bumper pension pots. We all know it's completely wrong deep down, so why do people still support it, at a time when people are supposed to be struggling.

I'm not necessarily referring to an exit charge, I'm talking fiscal deficit, the public credit card...

Morgan Stanley says their £98 billion deficit widening is, in fact, a relatively conservative estimate, saying:

"On our own more pessimistic growth assumptions, we would expect the cumulative deficit to increase over the parliament by £117 billion in the base case and by £160 billion in the stimulus case."


Some change from a year ago when the plan was to eliminate the deficit by 2020 (always unrealistic but at least we were on the right track)

 

[BigGully]

I was just pointing out to another poster that rather than guessing, there is factual information freely available to anyone who has heard of Google.

If you believe that 10% average unemployment, continuing the falling trend from 12% 3 years ago, across the EU makes it a basket case, then post Brexit Britain is going to shock you.

But the period of your selective 'fallen trend' is just a tiny time frame making it nearly irrelevant and not really representative of any fallen trend at all.

Comparatively the UK unemployment is significantly less than most EU nation states, you might argue it is the EU that has delivered it, but with a backdrop of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and France unemployment is one indicator that isnt a convincing argument for Remain.

 

[Jim in the West]

Would you like to post up any economic data from the UK compared to EU member states and the region as a whole, just for balance.

Unemployment, Growth, Infation or are you going to stick with Vegsters emphatic analysis of his Billboard outside his local Iceland store ??

Good point. But this isn't about where we are NOW - as members of the EU - it is where we will be in 2, 5, 10 years time, when we are out of the EU. Our current economic strength is built on the back of being a member of the largest, wealthiest trading block in the world. Our future is extremely bleak (economically) precisely because we will no longer be part of the EU. Even if you desperately want to "get back control" (whatever that might mean), the economic price to pay seems extraordinarily high. And - as we all know (and has been repeated many times in this thread) - the impact will be felt most deeply by the poor and disadvantaged in society. In other words, those the Tories (who are leading us into this nightmare) care very little about. For this reason, I still find it incredible that so many less well off members of our society are clamouring for Brexit.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Well I heard the UK has to give the EU £50B to settle up before leaving. I think most will want to ask what this money is for. May be it's to help pay for the failing EU project, the EU cronies in their lovely offices on bumper wages and bumper pension pots. We all know it's completely wrong deep down, so why do people still support it, at a time when people are supposed to be struggling.

You heard wrong about us having to give the EU £50bn. One of the points of negotiation will be how much of the UK's future financial commitment as a member of the EU (actually, perhaps a little higher than £50bn) will still have to be paid in the event of us leaving. It will be one of many negotiating issues and there is no point in Brexiteers building themselves up into a premature frenzy of indignation about us being about to hand it over (although many of them seem to love frenzies of indignation). As far as your point about the money being spent on EU cronies, I assume you mean the 35,000 members of the EU civil service. It's a lot of people, but compare it to the 30,000 extra civil servants who may have to be recruited in the UK simply to deal with Brexit. Or the staffing levels in major UK local authorities for that matter. Puts it into context.

As for your "We all know it's completely wrong" the answer is, no we don't. Because it isn't. Have your point of view by all means but don't assume that everyone shares it.

 

[BigGully]

Good point. But this isn't about where we are NOW - as members of the EU - it is where we will be in 2, 5, 10 years time, when we are out of the EU. Our current economic strength is built on the back of being a member of the largest, wealthiest trading block in the world. Our future is extremely bleak (economically) precisely because we will no longer be part of the EU. Even if you desperately want to "get back control" (whatever that might mean), the economic price to pay seems extraordinarily high. And - as we all know (and has been repeated many times in this thread) - the impact will be felt most deeply by the poor and disadvantaged in society. In other words, those the Tories (who are leading us into this nightmare) care very little about. For this reason, I still find it incredible that so many less well off members of our society are clamouring for Brexit.

Our relationship with the EU and worldwide has of course attributed to our economy's strength, its difficult to say by how much and although I accept to some, the status quo might seem extremely appealing and conversely damaging when we leave.

But for me thats part of the problem, somewhere along the way we got lost and immersed in a unwanted political project, it went beyond good trading partners, to the point that even you maybe feel that other member states will harm trading relationships even if their peoples too are effected, its a toxic mentaility.

 

[pastafarian]

Good point. But this isn't about where we are NOW - as members of the EU - it is where we will be in 2, 5, 10 years time, when we are out of the EU. Our current economic strength is built on the back of being a member of the largest, wealthiest trading block in the world. Our future is extremely bleak (economically) precisely because we will no longer be part of the EU. Even if you desperately want to "get back control" (whatever that might mean), the economic price to pay seems extraordinarily high. And - as we all know (and has been repeated many times in this thread) - the impact will be felt most deeply by the poor and disadvantaged in society. In other words, those the Tories (who are leading us into this nightmare) care very little about. For this reason, I still find it incredible that so many less well off members of our society are clamouring for Brexit.

You might indeed find it incredible and still don’t understand the reasoning, but that is simply your failing. Perhaps if any of you had bothered in the past to even look into why people were so anti EU and wanted to get back control (something else you still don’t understand) we wouldn’t be where we are today. But you didn’t bother did you, in fact you actively brushed off people that were anti and decided to label them instead. You only have yourselves to blame. And its turned out in the long run us leavers probably owe you a pat on the back for further sowing the seeds of discontent.
Congratulations and thank you for your service.

 

[studio150]

Exactly. Hope we get out before we have to give billions in bail outs as well. 50 Billion to leave, frigging cheek.

Its what you voted for.

Still it must be good for you to see that UKIP have spent a lot if EU money on both the General Election and the Referendum which if the audit is true they are in breach if rules.
Somewhat ironic that they complain about the EU and have been caught doing the same.

 

[GT49er]

Posting this again, for clarity, this is from one of the main leave campaigns, that people voted for:-

We will also follow the impact on the economy and the political framework that’s in place. Our focus will be assuring that the will of the British people is implemented. There are various trading models that could be explored, for example, a Norway-plus type model, or a looser Canada-style relationship.

I don't think you'll find many people voted for that twaddle, wherever it came from (I notice you're a bit coy about your source). In fact, I doubt if many people read it at all, let alone vote for it. What we voted for was to leave the EU - and what that means was very simply explained to you a few pages back - an end to free movement, and end to being subject to EU laws, an end to the car crash of the inevitable push towards greater federalisation, and an end to the single market if that is the unavoidable consequence of the former.

 

[Baldseagull]

But the period of your selective 'fallen trend' is just a tiny time frame making it nearly irrelevant and not really representative of any fallen trend at all.

Comparatively the UK unemployment is significantly less than most EU nation states, you might argue it is the EU that has delivered it, but with a backdrop of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and France unemployment is one indicator that isnt a convincing argument for Remain.

3 years of continually falling unemployment is not a tiny time frame, it is not anywhere near irrelevant, and certainly represents a falling trend, don't be a twit.
High unemployment in the countries you mention is in large part due to those nations over extending their credit and the problems of the Euro, which if you check your wallet, you will remember we are not part of, and have no obligation to join, so not a convincing argument for leaving.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I don't think you'll find many people voted for that twaddle, wherever it came from (I notice you're a bit coy about your source). In fact, I doubt if many people read it at all, let alone vote for it. What we voted for was to leave the EU - and what that means was very simply explained to you a few pages back - an end to free movement, and end to being subject to EU laws, an end to the car crash of the inevitable push towards greater federalisation, and an end to the single market if that is the unavoidable consequence of the former.

That sounds like a scary place to go.

 

[pb21]

For this reason, I still find it incredible that so many less well off members of our society are clamouring for Brexit.

I was reading Wikipedia earlier and saw this quote from Orwell RE. nationalism, I think this goes a long way to explain this. This then leads on to another question, which is why are people, particularity the less well off are becoming nationalistic, which IMO stems from a disaffected/disenfranchised section of society that has developed and come about through thirty years of neoliberal economic policy and accelerated due to eight years of austerity post the banking crisis, resulting in never before seen levels of inequality.

A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist—that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating—but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him.

 

[Soulman]

Its what you voted for.

Still it must be good for you to see that UKIP have spent a lot if EU money on both the General Election and the Referendum which if the audit is true they are in breach if rules.
Somewhat ironic that they complain about the EU and have been caught doing the same.

If the audit is true. Maybe wait before creaming your pants.

 

[Baldseagull]

I was reading Wikipedia earlier and saw this quote from Orwell RE. nationalism, I think this goes a long way to explain this. This then leads on to another question, which is why are people, particularity the less well off are becoming nationalistic, which IMO stems from a disaffected/disenfranchised section of society that has developed and come about through thirty years of neoliberal economic policy and accelerated due to eight years of austerity post the banking crisis, resulting in never before seen levels of inequality.

Those last two sentences, "The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him." is evident today.

 

[mikeyjh]

I don't think you'll find many people voted for that twaddle, wherever it came from (I notice you're a bit coy about your source). In fact, I doubt if many people read it at all, let alone vote for it. What we voted for was to leave the EU - and what that means was very simply explained to you a few pages back - an end to free movement, and end to being subject to EU laws, an end to the car crash of the inevitable push towards greater federalisation, and an end to the single market if that is the unavoidable consequence of the former.

Not in the slightest bit coy and why would I be, given that it's right there on the leave campaign page:- http://leave.eu/en/our-campaign

Still the open question, what does it mean?

'Wherever it came from', that has made me chuckle....

 

[GT49er]

Not in the slightest bit coy and why would I be, given that it's right there on the leave campaign page:- http://leave.eu/en/our-campaign

Still the open question, what does it mean?

'Wherever it came from', that has made me chuckle....

That link made me chuckle too. The first sentence - "Leave.EU played a decisive role in the British public’s historic vote to leave the EU on June 23rd." - what a load of bollox. Never heard of them, and I doubt if many of my fellow leave voters did either. Decisive role my foot!

And I'm really sorry you're having so much trouble in understanding the simple phrase, 'leave the EU.' It means leaving the EU, cancelling our membership, being a member no longer, becoming an ex-member. Don't think I can make it any clearer.

 

[pb21]

Never heard of them, and I doubt if many of my fellow leave voters did either. Decisive role my foot!

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of them! This is leave campaign bankrolled by Aaron Banks, the same lovely fellow who has recently bankrolled UKIP, albeit maybe for not much longer (that shouldn’t stop UKIP by the sounds of things though…).

Apparently:
By 11 February 2016 the campaign announced that it had over 500,000 supporters.

 

[mikeyjh]

That link made me chuckle too. The first sentence - "Leave.EU played a decisive role in the British public’s historic vote to leave the EU on June 23rd." - what a load of bollox. Never heard of them, and I doubt if many of my fellow leave voters did either. Decisive role my foot!

And I'm really sorry you're having so much trouble in understanding the simple phrase, 'leave the EU.' It means leaving the EU, cancelling our membership, being a member no longer, becoming an ex-member. Don't think I can make it any clearer.

Tells us all we need to know, did you actually follow the campaign? Have you heard of Peter Hargreaves, Aaron Banks? You're not doing your credibility any favours here.

Go and have a little read, you may be surprised.

 

[ManOfSussex]

That link made me chuckle too. The first sentence - "Leave.EU played a decisive role in the British public’s historic vote to leave the EU on June 23rd." - what a load of bollox. Never heard of them, and I doubt if many of my fellow leave voters did either. Decisive role my foot!

And I'm really sorry you're having so much trouble in understanding the simple phrase, 'leave the EU.' It means leaving the EU, cancelling our membership, being a member no longer, becoming an ex-member. Don't think I can make it any clearer.

Never heard of Leave.EU? Financed by Arron Banks and backed by Nigel Farage, along with the official campaign.

They wrote to 15M households too - https://www.ftadviser.com/2016/03/2...ng-brexit-8rxk4UC9Qz7Bm7BwpWThpO/article.html

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I was reading Wikipedia earlier and saw this quote from Orwell RE. nationalism, I think this goes a long way to explain this. This then leads on to another question, which is why are people, particularity the less well off are becoming nationalistic, which IMO stems from a disaffected/disenfranchised section of society that has developed and come about through thirty years of neoliberal economic policy and accelerated due to eight years of austerity post the banking crisis, resulting in never before seen levels of inequality.

It's not often I agree with you but on this we are as one. The problem comes with trying to solve some of the inequalities or disenchantment. It is my opinion that being a member of the EU when it as a body was seen to wish for ever more close integration, has in fact fuelled the discontent. This allows opportunists to stir resentment as people will always search for something or someone to blame. I believe that had the EU listened to the growing sentiment of disquiet across Britain and many of the other countries, and simply abandoned the aim of ever closer union, we may well have avoided the problem that exists now. For all the attention remain voters have for the failings of the Brexit strategy, whatever that may be, the EU is continuing to stumble from one crises to another with its ideological policies. A few years ago, a far right president of France from the national front would have been unthinkable. I am not happy with the prospect, although I think the EU would be finished. Brexit has stirred up less than wholesome nationalism here, but I think it's to the credit of the British people that it is relatively rare. The majority of voters in the referendum were they remain or leave would have not put so much time and effort into the decision as those of us arguing month after month on here. People are generally politically naive IMO and either voted for perceived stability or for a change that would alter the standing of our country in Europe. I don't think the majority of leave voters are racist, although leave would have obviously attracted that kind of voter. History will note that the western governing elite took their eye off the ball, badly misjudging the mood of the people. It remains to be seen whether the tide can be stemmed or if Brexit and Trump are just aberrations to the 'normal' world order.