Biggest current problem in the UK

[m20gull]

Of course people and civilisations can change. Otherwise we would still slaughter prisoners of war, still export slaves to the Caribbean, still have bull and badger baiting, execute or tansport criminals.

Mores change, but not overnight. Education works eventually.

 

[fatbadger]

The state of Education is a right bloody shower. Its nothing new, its been in a poor state for years, and probably can be put down to the so called "comprehensive" system.

I had the misfortune to grow up in a county which still has selective education. I still feel some resentment towards my parents for not moving to a county with a comprehensive system.

The biggest problem in this country is the (almost) all-pervasive individualism. I'm alright, Jack, etc etc. The country is going down the tubes, I fear, because too many people don't care about their neighbours. There's no spirit of community. But - that's the legacy of the loony right, I'm afraid.

 

[fatbadger]

Th phrase " Institutional Racism".

that implies that everyone who works in a certain industry who had been accused of institutional racism is a racist per se. Its a load a f***ing bollocks!

That is NOT what is meant by institutional racism. That term applies to situations in which a certain institution's procedures or structures act in a prejudiced way. In particular, it suggests that no matter how well-meaning or anti-racist any individuals working within that institution are, they come up against institutional blockages. So the phrase 'institutional racism' quite clearly is predicated upon the idea that not everyone within an institution is racist - the opposite of what you are claiming here. Indeed, it could be seen as a cop-out, preventing the identification of active racism on the part of individuals.

 

[m20gull]

IThere's no spirit of community. But - that's the legacy of the loony right, I'm afraid.

I agree with the first point.

I disagree with the second. The I'm all right attitude comes from a "the state owes me a living" attitude. That was encouraged after the end of both world wars, especially the second.

It first showed its results with the antisocial behaviour of reltively affluent teenagers in the 50s, mods vs rockers and cheap drugs in the 60s and the rise of football hooliganism from 1965. The decline of British community spirit did not start in 1979.

The link to education is that parents have, for too long, said "It's not my problem. I pay taxes - let the teachers sort it all out".

Now look! I've joined the blame someone else camp. My last post was to say its all of our faults for letting it happen and not putting it right.

 

[m20gull]

That is NOT what is meant by institutional racism. That term applies to situations in which a certain institution's procedures or structures act in a prejudiced way. In particular, it suggests that no matter how well-meaning or anti-racist any individuals working within that institution are, they come up against institutional blockages. So the phrase 'institutional racism' quite clearly is predicated upon the idea that not everyone within an institution is racist - the opposite of what you are claiming here. Indeed, it could be seen as a cop-out, preventing the identification of active racism on the part of individuals.

It is not about implication but inference. If the police are described as institutionally racist some people will infer that all police are racist and relationships are impaired. It is NOT what the phrase means but some people use it that way. IT highlights the risk that using a new undefined term encourages misunderstanding. It also allows anyone to describe an institution as racist in a lazy way.

 

[On the Left Wing]

They're not fat and juicy enough ..... I prefer raisins

 

[fatbadger]

I agree with the first point.

I disagree with the second. The I'm all right attitude comes from a "the state owes me a living" attitude. That was encouraged after the end of both world wars, especially the second.

I'll happily accept much of what you say, m20gull.

BUT, I think the issue of personal responsibility (which, I think, is what you are talking about) actually covers two different ideas - the idea that we have a personal responsibility to ourselves (as promoted by the right, and as damaged - I happily agree - by the promotion of the interventionist state since 1906) and personal responsibility to others (as in the idea of community - and as promoted by the left), which has been enormously damaged by the hegemony of the loony right. I think it is important to hold both principles - but I think the latter has been much more under attack in the last fifty years or so than the former and, as a result, it is the loss of the latter which is the biggest problem.

 

[fatbadger]

It is not about implication but inference. If the police are described as institutionally racist some people will infer that all police are racist and relationships are impaired. It is NOT what the phrase means but some people use it that way. IT highlights the risk that using a new undefined term encourages misunderstanding. It also allows anyone to describe an institution as racist in a lazy way.

I agree - which is why I took issue with dtg's inference of its meaning!

 

[m20gull]

personal responsibility to others (as in the idea of community - and as promoted by the left)

It's another implication and inference issue. The left will see socialism/communism (the name's not important) as promoting community. Most people will see it with human nature as "good for me, sod everyone else". Responsibility to others is what has been lost and is evident everywhere. How to re-establish it is the mystery? But I don't see it as the state's role. It's up to us.

 

[the full harris]

Th phrase " Institutional Racism".

that implies that everyone who works in a certain industry who had been accused of institutional racism is a racist per se. Its a load a f***ing bollocks!

ok, well that wasn't what I meant to imply.

Maybe I tried to be clever use a long word (institutionalised in this case) and I chose the wrong one, didn't understand it properly and said something I didn't mean.
What I meant was the undeniably rascist attitude that a lot of people in Britain have, often through no real fault of their own and, as I said, not because they are 'bad' or maliscious people. I don't know why we have it, we just do. Equally, I do not accuse everyone of having these attitudes, but you'd have to agree that too many people in this country do.

 

[fatbadger]

But I don't see it as the state's role. It's up to us.

Yes. Hence why I called it personal responsibility to others. And, I maintain, it is that which has been lost. We have been told for a number of decades now, by the right, that we should only believe in a responsibility to ourselves, and, in particular, that other people's lives are their responsibility, and their responsibility only.

 

[Dave the OAP]

fatbadger...once again I bow to your superior knowledge in these things . You really are a very very clever chap.

When the Steven Lawrence enquiry came out and said that the Metropolitain Police were "inherrantly Institutionally racist" I took that to mean that in their eyes, there was a racism problem in the Police force and by using the phrase, that the racism was rife in the organisation, or should they have said, " the police force are not a racist organisation, however there are one or two ( or 10,000) bad apples in the bunch."

To us mere dim wits playing with fancy English is lost on us. Maybe we should get back to being cannon fodder and leave the intellectual arguements to those better than us

 

[beorhthelm]

I had the misfortune to grow up in a county which still has selective education. I still feel some resentment towards my parents for not moving to a county with a comprehensive system.

What country did you grow up in then? I grew up in England where we have niether.

Everyone gets put onto a treadmill system where the schools cant select on ability for entry, yet do so internally for administrative reasons. So you have "streams" with in the school, but you cant change between streams as you dont get taught enough to be able to jump up a band. At the end of the treadmill you have exams, but the papers you take for that subject are dependant on what band you where in - hence if you are in the middle group, you cant sit the top paper, so cant achieve a grade higher than C. Bitter, moi? A bit, but i took responsibility for it after i left and realised id been shafted and went on to get a degree.

At least with a selective sytem you know where you stand form the outset, and if you improve you can be bumped up as the selective mechanism allows for that (though i gues it probably doesnt work like that in practice). Indeed, a geniune Comprehensive system would work too if it meant raising the overall standard and helping up those who stuggle/have less ablilty. But like most political ideas its great in concept but the execution is a far from the ideal. this county choose to lower the bar to make everyone the "same".

And yes, people do have different abilities. The looney left need to get a grip on this concept. One person might be academically gifted, so should be offered a root throught ot A levels, degree and on to a career in science. Another person might be very dextrous and bit more savvy than the smart one so should be offered training in a manual skill such as plumbing. Someone in between has a mix of skills and they're should be the oppurtunities to go in to management or engineering. We need ALL these different types of skills for society to function, they each have their place and their worth. Instead we offer a one size fits none system, with the clever ones given the impression it pointless to make an effort to learn and the not so clever ones get the impression there's nothing for them at all.

 

[Scoffers]

lack of space

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Indefatigable made a very good point.

Lord Bracknell made a good point and put it in a way which made me think 'oh, how do i answer that?'. Clever, i thought.

Easy 10 pissed all over both of you.

I don't feel pissed over by Easy 10.

I share his detestation of the BNP. And his despair about what to do about it.

"Blaming" Nick Griffin and exposing him as a fascist won't eliminate fascism.

Yesterday's BBC programme fell into the trap that bothers me. It is not enough to identify fascists and blame them for fascism. If we are to defeat fascism, we need to engage more in the collective political life of the nation. The current "cult of the individual" makes that less likely to happen.

That's why I indentified it as the biggest problem we have in the UK.

 

[Lammy]

The inability to life in this country without being saddled with debt. We go to university and get into debt. We leave University and find that our friends that didn't go have been working for 4 years have a nice house and reletively low mortgage and no debt. Us graduates are told that because the jobs we get are so high paid that we should easily be able to pay it back.

Well I've been a graduate for 4.5 years and I'm still paying it back. I've had to stretch my finances to the hilt to get on the property ladder. I'm now struggling to pay back any debt incurred by Solisitors fees, Stamp duty etc. Oh and I ain't paid that much either! In fact I'm not paid much more now than I was when I left Uni if you take inflation into account. It's difficult to push for too much more money otherwise I'm in dander of seeing my job go to India!

Thank you Labour.

 

[fatbadger]

What country did you grow up in then? I grew up in England where we have niether.

I said "county", not country!

For the record, that county is Lincolnshire.

 

[fatbadger]

As for the selective/comprehensive debate:

the problem about the selective system is that it assumes two sizes fits all - clever and not clever. You are selected at the age of 11 on the basis of a narrow set of subjects. That's all well and good if you are equally able at all subjects, but people rarely are. In fact, the majority of people are better at one set of subjects than another, often dividing on arts'science lines. Thus, if you are good at the arts but not the sciences, or good at the sciences but not the arts, it can be pretty random as to whether you end up in a grammar or a secondary modern school (in practice, people good at arts but not at sciences are much more likely to go to the grammar, due to the (understandable) stress on ability in English). The problem is that you will be taught on the basis that you are good (or bad) at everything, with all of the problems that entails i.e. teaching not geared to your abilities.

Compare this with a properly-streamed Comprehensive system. Yoy could get taught English on the basis of your abilities in that subject, taught maths based on your abilities in that subject, and so on - offering the kind of nuanced education which is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE in a selective education system.

Now, I accept that not all comprehensive schools are properly streamed - but that is a problem with the running of those schools, not the system itself. The impossibility of full-spectrum streaming in a selective system is a problem of the system itself.

 

[FG aka Football Genius.]

Lord B despite my true blue colours i have to concede as Nick Griffin point out as Nick did later on newsnight on BBC 2 that he WAS elected democratically to lead his political party wheres Michael Howard was NOT. You are wrong about the biggest problem in this country and also wrong at the way the BBC as you say exposed fascism though that depends upon your definition of it in relation to others.

 

[Soul Finger]

fatbadger...once again I bow to your superior knowledge in these things . You really are a very very clever chap.

When the Steven Lawrence enquiry came out and said that the Metropolitain Police were "inherrantly Institutionally racist" I took that to mean that in their eyes, there was a racism problem in the Police force and by using the phrase, that the racism was rife in the organisation, or should they have said, " the police force are not a racist organisation, however there are one or two ( or 10,000) bad apples in the bunch."

To us mere dim wits playing with fancy English is lost on us. Maybe we should get back to being cannon fodder and leave the intellectual arguements to those better than us

Get over yourself mate