[News] BBC Journalist harassed

[Machiavelli]

My own view is that long, long before Johnson/Cummings appeared on the scene, there was a quiet revolution of countless millions turning against the EU on these shores. Some newspapers were influential, but Farage was a colossal influence. (But social media was the real reason).

Did that pass you by in the noughties and early 2010’s, it did me? The penny dropped when I went to a BBQ in Hove with a mix of NHS staff, young graduates, professionals, someone providing care, so not your archetypal Daily Mail readers …. turns out that everyone bar me was a Brexiteer and voted so shortly afterwards.

My lifelong Labour mate, never a Tory, voted Brexit and today is staunchly the same.

I think what you and I completely missed was the youtube, twatter and facebook explosion in terms of influencers and politics. I’ve had a youtube membership for getting on for 15 years. I love it for music, boxing and comedy. I genuinely didn’t realise that the left and right feasted on it daily in echo chambers watching liars.

I’m quite proud that I missed it all btw

I was asked by a Dutch colleague in 2011 whether we'd vote for Brexit (although it wasn't known as such then), and said that I thought we'd vote to leave. There were the French and Danish referenda but, at that point, it was more the fact that c80% of the newspaper readership had had decades of anti-EU material stretching back to the 80s.
UKIP subsequently increased their vote, and was the biggest party in the 2014 Euro elections. As you say, Farage was an extremely effective communicator and got repeated exposure.
The refugees leaving Syria/Russian bombing/ISIS, alongside the recession and subsequent sado-austerity provided a perfect context. Vote Leave ran a brilliant campaign (the use of 'Project Fear' to counter anything was genius), whereas the Remain campaign was technocratic and devoid of passion. The fact that turnout was lowest in London and Scotland -- the key Remain areas -- says a lot to me.
You're right that social media has been a slow burn, and continues to transform politics.

 

[vegster]

My own view is that long, long before Johnson/Cummings appeared on the scene, there was a quiet revolution of countless millions turning against the EU on these shores. Some newspapers were influential, but Farage was a colossal influence. (But social media was the real reason).

Did that pass you by in the noughties and early 2010’s, it did me? The penny dropped when I went to a BBQ in Hove with a mix of NHS staff, young graduates, professionals, someone providing care, so not your archetypal Daily Mail readers …. turns out that everyone bar me was a Brexiteer and voted so shortly afterwards.

My lifelong Labour mate, never a Tory, voted Brexit and today is staunchly the same.

I think what you and I completely missed was the youtube, twatter and facebook explosion in terms of influencers and politics. I’ve had a youtube membership for getting on for 15 years. I love it for music, boxing and comedy. I genuinely didn’t realise that the left and right feasted on it daily in echo chambers watching liars.

I’m quite proud that I missed it all btw

Must admit I never noticed what was happening either, The EU were always given negative press over here whatever happened and whatever policies they eventually settled on. It's difficult to keep 27 sometimes disparate nations, in agreement so there has to be lots of horse trading and get outs in order to get anything ratified.

A classic example was when the EU committed to the Working Time Directive, I remember some senior Tories being horrified on behalf of British Workers, apparently we preferred to work longer hours and have less breaks and we enjoyed working harder/longer for less money than lots of our European colleagues ...Of course there were opt-outs which we duly took but at one point I was down to a 35 hour week which was due to be reduced to 32.5 hours ! Since that time I find myself back to a 40 hour week and my current employer gives bare minimum holidays yet strangely I earn less while working longer hours ?

 

[Machiavelli]

Must admit I never noticed what was happening either, The EU were always given negative press over here whatever happened and whatever policies they eventually settled on. It's difficult to keep 27 sometimes disparate nations, in agreement so there has to be lots of horse trading and get outs in order to get anything ratified.

A classic example was when the EU committed to the Working Time Directive, I remember some senior Tories being horrified on behalf of British Workers, apparently we preferred to work longer hours and have less breaks and we enjoyed working harder/longer for less money than lots of our European colleagues ...Of course there were opt-outs which we duly took but at one point I was down to a 35 hour week which was due to be reduced to 32.5 hours ! Since that time I find myself back to a 40 hour week and my current employer gives bare minimum holidays yet strangely I earn less while working longer hours ?

Yup. Just we've been offered the twelfth consecutive year of below inflation pay rise or freeze, aka, pay cut. Still there's a woke agenda to get riled by.

 

[half time scores]

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you Marjorie Taylor Greene.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57478728

A Republican lawmaker has apologized for likening coronavirus mask rules to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany.

Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia disavowed her comments after a visit to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC.

The conservative firebrand said it was important for her to acknowledge she had made "offensive remarks".

The Trump ally has courted controversy since assuming office in January.

Speaking outside the US Capitol on Monday, Mrs Greene said: "One of the best lessons that my father always taught me was when you make a mistake you should own it.

"And I have a made a mistake and it's really bothered me for a couple of weeks now and so I definitely want to own it."

She added: "There is no comparison to the Holocaust.

"And there are words that I have said and remarks that I have made that I know are offensive and for that I want to apologise."

She continued: "If we're going to lead, we need to be able to lead in a way where if we've messed up it's very important for us to say we're sorry."

In an interview with a conservative podcast last month, Mrs Greene, 47, lambasted safety protocols adopted by Democrats in the House of Representatives, including a requirement that masks be worn on the chamber floor.

"You know, we can look back in a time and history where people were told to wear a gold star," she said.

"And they were definitely treated like second-class citizens, so much so that they were put in trains and taken to gas chambers in Nazi Germany.

"This is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi [Democratic House speaker] is talking about.

 

[Weststander]

I was asked by a Dutch colleague in 2011 whether we'd vote for Brexit (although it wasn't known as such then), and said that I thought we'd vote to leave. There were the French and Danish referenda but, at that point, it was more the fact that c80% of the newspaper readership had had decades of anti-EU material stretching back to the 80s.
UKIP subsequently increased their vote, and was the biggest party in the 2014 Euro elections. As you say, Farage was an extremely effective communicator and got repeated exposure.
The refugees leaving Syria/Russian bombing/ISIS, alongside the recession and subsequent sado-austerity provided a perfect context. Vote Leave ran a brilliant campaign (the use of 'Project Fear' to counter anything was genius), whereas the Remain campaign was technocratic and devoid of passion. The fact that turnout was lowest in London and Scotland -- the key Remain areas -- says a lot to me.
You're right that social media has been a slow burn, and continues to transform politics.

The converts I knew to being Brexiteers weren’t really DM readers. They’d found and got absorbed in a culture wars world on Twatter and Youtube (I’ve heard it’s the same on Facebook, if you want it to be), of Douglas Murray, Guido Fawkes, and countless other Remain or Brexit theorists and faux experts. From what I can see these people often know no more than us, they’re certainly less open minded. They just happen to be good at getting a following of sheep.

This virtual world has since expanded to comprising UK based Trump supporters, Covid deniers (they’re really not all right wing, especially in Sussex, it’s an eclectic bunch of anti types and self proclaimed off-gridders ….. living in Brighton ) and (genuinely) people who think Epstein was the victim of a conspiracy. You couldn’t make it up.

 

[clapham_gull]

The converts I knew to being Brexiteers weren’t really DM readers. They’d found and got absorbed in a culture wars world on Twatter and Youtube (I’ve heard it’s the same on Facebook, if you want it to be), of Douglas Murray, Guido Fawkes, and countless other Remain or Brexit theorists and faux experts. From what I can see these people often know no more than us, they’re certainly less open minded. They just happen to be good at getting a following of sheep.

This virtual world has since expanded to comprising UK based Trump supporters, Covid deniers (they’re really not all right wing, especially in Sussex, it’s an eclectic bunch of anti types and self proclaimed off-gridders ….. living in Brighton ) and (genuinely) people who think Epstein was the victim of a conspiracy. You couldn’t make it up.

Never trust a hippy.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Probably one of the following which are still not allowed.

Dancing at a wedding (other than the first dance)
Not being served a pint at a Wetherspoons bar, and standing around being idiots
Falling down drink on a nightclub dance floor
Not wanting to quarantine after their annual holiday in Benidorm

Erm that's about it.

I'm sure most right-minded people would agree that dad-dancing at a wedding is an abomination that should be outlawed indefinitely

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The converts I knew to being Brexiteers weren’t really DM readers. They’d found and got absorbed in a culture wars world on Twatter and Youtube (I’ve heard it’s the same on Facebook, if you want it to be), of Douglas Murray, Guido Fawkes, and countless other Remain or Brexit theorists and faux experts. From what I can see these people often know no more than us, they’re certainly less open minded. They just happen to be good at getting a following of sheep.

This virtual world has since expanded to comprising UK based Trump supporters, Covid deniers (they’re really not all right wing, especially in Sussex, it’s an eclectic bunch of anti types and self proclaimed off-gridders ….. living in Brighton ) and (genuinely) people who think Epstein was the victim of a conspiracy. You couldn’t make it up.

You do know that a lot of people just don’t want to be members of the EU ? Nothing to do with YouTube or newspapers or being right wing or anti stuff. Just prefer to be out and that’s it. I take on board your experience and impressions formed but there has been an agonized debate by remainers for 5 years now, focused on their inability to process a different opinion. Lumping the millions who prefer to be out with the fringe loonies who harassed the journalist is just another way of expressing their contempt for people of a different opinion. It is much easier to denigrate others than accept reality. I am not accusing you of this but many NSC posters clearly have this difficulty.

 

[cunning fergus]

Must admit I never noticed what was happening either, The EU were always given negative press over here whatever happened and whatever policies they eventually settled on. It's difficult to keep 27 sometimes disparate nations, in agreement so there has to be lots of horse trading and get outs in order to get anything ratified.

A classic example was when the EU committed to the Working Time Directive, I remember some senior Tories being horrified on behalf of British Workers, apparently we preferred to work longer hours and have less breaks and we enjoyed working harder/longer for less money than lots of our European colleagues ...Of course there were opt-outs which we duly took but at one point I was down to a 35 hour week which was due to be reduced to 32.5 hours ! Since that time I find myself back to a 40 hour week and my current employer gives bare minimum holidays yet strangely I earn less while working longer hours ?

It’s not a classic example of why U.K. voted leave though.

Try the accession of Eastern European countries to the EU, which Labour didn’t do anything to manage (by design or incompetence). John Reid (Home Secretary at the time) confidently played down impact when challenged on potential immigration by saying no more than 15,000 Eastern European’s a year would travel over to U.K.

Within 2 years Labour MPs around the country were sending in letters to No 10 warning of political challenges from their approach. John Dereham was a “classic example” he advised his Southampton constituency had experienced an increase of over 15,000 Eastern European’s alone. Wages for local wages had plummeted up to 50% in Building industry, immigrant labour was also cash in hand and was pushing up local resentment because social services were under pressure, e.g. migrants not registering with GPs would head straight to hospital for treatments.

Stephen Wall (key advisor to Blair) warned of impending doom in multiple Labour constituencies (following these warning letters), due to their policy of open door Eastern European immigration. A upturn was attempted with John Reid backtracking on his prediction and Labour Party leadership publicly pushed a scoring system for immigrants, but it was too late. Since then Labour have a generational problem with immigration.

Before you say that was a Labour call and not an EU one, (which is true) it is however a fact that the EU has a policy of freedom of movement. This policy may be theoretically well intentions its practical implications are that there will be a disproportionate movement from poor countries to rich countries.

There is a lot more obviously, but there it is............people didn’t need to hear or read the DM or Farage they saw this change in their towns and cities............most importantly of all they saw it in their pay packets.

 

[Weststander]

It’s not a classic example of why U.K. voted leave though.

Try the accession of Eastern European countries to the EU, which Labour didn’t do anything to manage (by design or incompetence). John Reid (Home Secretary at the time) confidently played down impact when challenged on potential immigration by saying no more than 15,000 Eastern European’s a year would travel over to U.K.

Within 2 years Labour MPs around the country were sending in letters to No 10 warning of political challenges from their approach. John Dereham was a “classic example” he advised his Southampton constituency had experienced an increase of over 15,000 Eastern European’s alone. Wages for local wages had plummeted up to 50% in Building industry, immigrant labour was also cash in hand and was pushing up local resentment because social services were under pressure, e.g. migrants not registering with GPs would head straight to hospital for treatments.

Stephen Wall (key advisor to Blair) warned of impending doom in multiple Labour constituencies (following these warning letters), due to their policy of open door Eastern European immigration. A upturn was attempted with John Reid backtracking on his prediction and Labour Party leadership publicly pushed a scoring system for immigrants, but it was too late. Since then Labour have a generational problem with immigration.

Before you say that was a Labour call and not an EU one, (which is true) it is however a fact that the EU has a policy of freedom of movement. This policy may be theoretically well intentions its practical implications are that there will be a disproportionate movement from poor countries to rich countries.

There is a lot more obviously, but there it is............people didn’t need to hear or read the DM or Farage they saw this change in their towns and cities............most importantly of all they saw it in their pay packets.

That's true. Even the Remain Guardian reported that at the time!

 

[Randy McNob]

You do know that a lot of people just don’t want to be members of the EU ? Nothing to do with YouTube or newspapers or being right wing or anti stuff. Just prefer to be out and that’s it. I take on board your experience and impressions formed but there has been an agonized debate by remainers for 5 years now, focused on their inability to process a different opinion. Lumping the millions who prefer to be out with the fringe loonies who harassed the journalist is just another way of expressing their contempt for people of a different opinion. It is much easier to denigrate others than accept reality. I am not accusing you of this but many NSC posters clearly have this difficulty.

But it must be based on something, the average man in the street hasn't got the first idea how the EU works or how it benefits us. If you ask those to go into detail why they don't want to be EU members they are usually stumped for an answer, they generally buy into the negative reporting which blamed our countries ills on it, where the real culprit is 40 years of Thacherite policies

 

[Machiavelli]

The converts I knew to being Brexiteers weren’t really DM readers. They’d found and got absorbed in a culture wars world on Twatter and Youtube (I’ve heard it’s the same on Facebook, if you want it to be), of Douglas Murray, Guido Fawkes, and countless other Remain or Brexit theorists and faux experts. From what I can see these people often know no more than us, they’re certainly less open minded. They just happen to be good at getting a following of sheep.

This virtual world has since expanded to comprising UK based Trump supporters, Covid deniers (they’re really not all right wing, especially in Sussex, it’s an eclectic bunch of anti types and self proclaimed off-gridders ….. living in Brighton ) and (genuinely) people who think Epstein was the victim of a conspiracy. You couldn’t make it up.

Yes, there's plenty of them. Libertarian types, even Green voters. Many more in Lewes though

 

[Randy McNob]

That's true. Even the Remain Guardian reported that at the time!

it's a strange journey where people are angry at builders being paid less....fast forward 15-ish years same people feel Fishermen and farmers losing their businesses is a price worth paying

 

[cunning fergus]

But it must be based on something, the average man in the street hasn't got the first idea how the EU works or how it benefits us. If you ask those to go into detail why they don't want to be EU members they are usually stumped for an answer, they generally buy into the negative reporting which blamed our countries ills on it, where the real culprit is 40 years of Thacherite policies

If the average man in the street had genuinely benefitted from membership we wouldn’t be out.

Had they been “richer” in the general sense (including financially) they would have likely voted remain. They didn’t though, whereas overwhelmingly, the bosses of big business, the CBI, the banks, the political establishment, the media, the arts were all saying how much better off we all are.........It wasn’t true for the average man in the street.

It was the average man in the street however that has been treated like a fool by all of the above for years, and that trend continues.

What was it Einstein said about the definition of insanity?

 

[drew]

But it must be based on something, the average man in the street hasn't got the first idea how the EU works or how it benefits us. If you ask those to go into detail why they don't want to be EU members they are usually stumped for an answer, they generally buy into the negative reporting which blamed our countries ills on it, where the real culprit is 40 years of Thacherite policies

Pretty much this.

The fisherman thought they would get their seas back so voted for brexit and have been stitched up. Now the farmers are seeing the same thing with the deal with Australia.

 

[A1X]

If the average man in the street had genuinely benefitted from membership we wouldn’t be out.

I think it's more a case of "weren't aware of how they had genuinely benefitted" than a more blanket "hadn't genuinely benefitted". Most people tend to do better with cheaper, better quality food and a better economy as a basic, and ****ing LOADS of people used Freedom of Movement, they just weren't told that was what it was, they assumed retiring to Spain or a cheap holiday to Croatia was something that just happened.

 

[Weststander]

it's a strange journey where people are angry at builders being paid less....fast forward 15-ish years same people feel Fishermen and farmers losing their businesses is a price worth paying

Human nature to look after your own interests especially on money?

 

[Randy McNob]

If the average man in the street had genuinely benefitted from membership we wouldn’t be out.

Had they been “richer” in the general sense (including financially) they would have likely voted remain. They didn’t though, whereas overwhelmingly, the bosses of big business, the CBI, the banks, the political establishment, the media, the arts were all saying how much better off we all are.........It wasn’t true for the average man in the street.

It was the average man in the street however that has been treated like a fool by all of the above for years, and that trend continues.

What was it Einstein said about the definition of insanity?

They were and it's a proven fact, in the 25 years from 1993 (just after we pulled out of the ERM) to 2016 (Brexit vote) the UK enjoyed constant growth largely due to having a Germany+ arrangement, full access and keeping the pound. Having discarded this our economy is predicted to contract by about 15% over 15 years.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But it must be based on something, the average man in the street hasn't got the first idea how the EU works or how it benefits us. If you ask those to go into detail why they don't want to be EU members they are usually stumped for an answer, they generally buy into the negative reporting which blamed our countries ills on it, where the real culprit is 40 years of Thacherite policies

These arguments have been played out ad infinitum on the Brexit thread. People have lots of different reasons and don’t really expect to be harangued into constantly repeating them for forever and a day. Many on your side of the debate don’t listen anyway.

 

[cunning fergus]

They were and it's a proven fact, in the 25 years from 1993 (just after we pulled out of the ERM) to 2016 (Brexit vote) the UK enjoyed constant growth largely due to having a Germany+ arrangement, full access and keeping the pound. Having discarded this our economy is predicted to contract by about 15% over 15 years.

They were not, but you can hold on to the beliefs you have that they were. I am not saying that immigration was the sole issue for Brexit, but it’s a major factor. Not because of the press or UKIP but because people experienced the affects of up immigration in their lives (as per John Dunham’s note). That historical and political construct would not be controversial to all but the ultra remain zealots, and not least because since this time Labour have been hamstrung by its approach to immigration (since this time), consider the Gordon Brown interaction with a Labour member in Rochdale.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

Quote: Outlining the impact on the everyday lives of his constituents, Denham argued at the time that resentment of immigration would grow. “One of the problems was that people were supposed to register if they were employed but many came as self-employed,” Denham says. “The biggest impacts were in self-employed trades like construction, where you didn’t have to register.” In the memo, Denham stated that the daily rate for a builder in the city had fallen by 50% since 2004. He also noted that hospital accident and emergency services were under strain because migrants tended not to use GPs as a first port of call. It also turned out that the local further education college had to close its doors after 1,000 migrants attempted to sign up for an English-as-a-second-language course on one day. Whitehall, Denham argued, was wholly out of touch with the concerns of his constituents. The government needed a comprehensive assessment to work out how it should deal with the surge in immigration.

You can argue all you like with me, many of those in Government at that time now accept they got it wrong, and they misjudged the volume and affect of immigration on the electorate, Labour are still dealing with that fallout now. Till they get it, they will be an opposition party.