[Albion] Banter or Hate?

[Grizz]

I'm gay and whilst I don't get outraged or overly offended by the 'we can see you holding hands' chant or 'you're too ugly to be gay' retort I still see it as a stepping stone to normalising homophobia within society, and that can lead onto more serious homophobic abuse outside of football. Whenever I hear those chants I sigh and it does diminish my enjoyment of watching the Albion, it affected me quite badly back in my late teens, early twenties (now 47), as I wrote about in another post a year or two ago.

Others will disagree with me on this, as nickbrighton seems to and that's cool, but I applaud these fines and convictions that have started taking place.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Plenty of other chants at the Albion which could conceivably be construed as hate crimes rather than bantz:

'Wash your mouth out son
And go get your father's gun
And shoot the Palace scum'

I mean, really?

What about:

'Cry in a minute
He's gonna cry in a minute'

What if that were actually to happen, a player having a full-blown mental health episode on the pitch during a game?

And then there's the timeless Amex classic 'AL-BINO! AL-BINO!' Classic bantz right there!

I guess in the end, most football chants aimed at opposition fans and players are designed with maximum hurt in mind.

Take one step back from the heat of the match and it's all pretty horrible really. Which of us would behave like that in real life and be proud of ourselves?

 

[Billy the Fish]

Why is "rent boy" is considered homophobic?

Surely it's use in a derogatory way is a reference to the subservient nature of the profession rather than the person's sexuality.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The 2 most common chants ( holding hands/does your boyfriend know) I will always take as banter.
It's on a par with You're French and you know you are. There is an attempt at humour and is aimed at the collective group.

There was a debate regarding Palace's 3-1 song to us and our riposte.
Which I think the consensus was that both chants were homophobic. I'm not sure I agree, but there is a fair degree of hate crime, in most Palace chants, I suppose. I find the Zaha song and the line "Shoot the Palace scum" problematic.

We have often sung to some of our Northern cousins that they come from a town full of racists, which is a more offensive chant, in my view.

In general, my view that ant chant aimed at the collective, is an attempt at banter. Quite often very misplaced however.
When homophobic language is directed at an individual (player or fan) it is a hate crime.

 

[Half Time Pies]

'we can see you holding hands' is probably the mildest one of the lot but the chant is clearly homophobic as it implies that being homosexual is negative and something to be poked fun at.

I think if you accept that chant as being OK then more vile stuff will naturally follow on. You can't leave any grey areas, a zero tolerance approach like you now have with racism in football grounds is really the only way to stamp it out in my opinion.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Thanks for posting.

Completed.

I found the questions and juxtaposition of the the chants very interesting. It made me think.

I was just about to post exactly the same reply. It does make you think.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Why is "rent boy" is considered homophobic?

Surely its use in a derogatory way is a reference to the subservient nature of the profession rather than the person's sexuality.

This is a good explanation (that I needed as I couldn’t get past the general ‘profession’).

Homophobic nature of 'Chelsea rent boy' chant explained after rise in incidents

The 'rent boy' chant has been heard at at least four Premier League and FA Cup games within the first two months of 2023, with Chelsea Pride hoping to educate supporters on why it is homophobic

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Horses Arse]

Dear Seagulls,

I’m a Wolves fan – I’m coming in peace and hoping you can help me out…

I’m a senior Lecturer at Birmingham City University, writing academic papers as part of my PhD portfolio (Koln University). My research has a focus on the language used by football fans at games – for some people it’s ‘banter’ and for others, it has become a ‘hate crime’. It is a complex, emotive issue and one in which Wolverhampton Wanderers have recently incurred a £100,000 fine from the FA, due to chants aimed at Chelsea fans during the Wolves vs Chelsea game earlier this year. We also have had a number of arrests at games involving Brighton, so the issue is very relevant to both of our clubs.

I want to find out what you think of the language used – I want you to be honest. I've had a fantastic response so far (heading towards 1,500 replies) and some lively debate.

The questionnaire is entirely voluntary and completely anonymous. I will only use the data I obtain for academic papers and once complete I will share the data with you on this forum. I have ethical approval granted from Koln University.

I will be comparing your answers with those from supporters of Arsenal, Watford, Plymouth, Ipswich Chelsea, Swansea, Bolton, Cardiff and Newcastle.

The questionnaire should only take you a couple of minutes and I would like to thank you in advance. Here is the link:

Hate Crime | Hate Crime - Web Survey Tools

Hate Crime - Web Survey Tools

questionpro.com

Kind regards,

Peter Evans

It's a bit light isn't it? No option for "banter but very boring, unimaginative, dull and tedious". Also ignores the homophobic abuse that does occur. Chelsea rent boys, we can see you holding hands etc is not the issue.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thing is, it’s all a personal threshold, insults aimed towards me don’t bother me in the slightest, I work with the public and if I get called a **** I laugh it off, some of my colleagues book off work and go home. Homosexual related chants only bother me to the extent of boredom and Leeds fans who like to wear pink cowboy hats etc just lack imagination and are attention seekers. Songs like “When Wilfred Zaha dies….” don’t impact on my life, I’ve long since given up apologising for the actions of others, it just make the perpetrators look stupid. I’m happy my 14 year old son shares my opinion on shit football songs.

Thing is.....it's not about you.

And I don't mean that in an aggressive way.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm gay and whilst I don't get outraged or overly offended by the 'we can see you holding hands' chant or 'you're too ugly to be gay' retort I still see it as a stepping stone to normalising homophobia within society, and that can lead onto more serious homophobic abuse outside of football. Whenever I hear those chants I sigh and it does diminish my enjoyment of watching the Albion, it affected me quite badly back in my late teens, early twenties (now 47), as I wrote about in another post a year or two ago.

Others will disagree with me on this, as nickbrighton seems to and that's cool, but I applaud these fines and convictions that have started taking place.

I agree with you

It's easy to be 'not bothered' about things that don't relate to you personally.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Having a crowd sing “We can see you holding hands“ to me is now unacceptable but i think education is better than arresting someone. I am not personally offended by it but lots of others will be and that is the point.

Where I am offended, as others have alluded to already, is when bile faced individuals call you peados, faggots, aids carriers etc rights in your face. This is offensive to me. I appreciate however that others who have faced prejudice all their lives because of their belief/race/sexuality will have justifiable different opinions

Plenty of other chants at the Albion which could conceivably be construed as hate crimes rather than bantz:

'Wash your mouth out son
And go get your father's gun
And shoot the Palace scum'

I mean, really?

What about:

'Cry in a minute
He's gonna cry in a minute'

What if that were actually to happen, a player having a full-blown mental health episode on the pitch during a game?

And then there's the timeless Amex classic 'AL-BINO! AL-BINO!' Classic bantz right there!

I guess in the end, most football chants aimed at opposition fans and players are designed with maximum hurt in mind.

Take one step back from the heat of the match and it's all pretty horrible really. Which of us would behave like that in real life and be proud of ourselves?

i think you may have missed the point of the OP’s post

 

[Peacehaven Wild Kids]

Thing is.....it's not about you.

And I don't mean that in an aggressive way.

No, no, of course. Problem is with these questions you can only answer for yourself though. I don’t want to get offended on behalf of someone who might not even be offended.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Very interesting study, looking forward to hear the results.

Society has changed, and largely for the better IMO, my only comment would be are we going too far, and being offended for the sake of being offended with some things.

I think someone mentioned repeat offenders should be prosecuted, which is where I’m at. For certain fans, we need create a culture of learning and initial forgiveness, IMO anyway.

I genuinely, naively or not, like to think people are actually decent in the main….

 

[dazzer6666]

Done, but if that’s the depth of survey/opinion required to support research for a PhD then I really do despair about the state of academia. Less than half a dozen banal questions about a couple of commonly-heard (for us at least) chants won’t tell you anything.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Done, but if that’s the depth of survey/opinion required to support research for a PhD then I really do despair about the state of academia. Less than half a dozen banal questions about a couple of commonly-heard (for us at least) chants won’t tell you anything.

Get what you’re saying, and agree to a certain extent, but I think the age breakdown, will either prove or disprove certain theories depending on the number of responses.

 

[dazzer6666]

Get what you’re saying, and agree to a certain extent, but I think the age breakdown, will either prove or disprove certain theories depending on the number of responses.

Still looks incredibly lightweight for something purporting to be supporting a PhD (of which I have no personal experience by the way as a pathetic failed A Level student - but both my offspring (somehow, clearly not genetic) have MScs and I proof-read a lot of their stuff)

Maybe I’m too thick to understand the nuances

 

[Eric the meek]

Get what you’re saying, and agree to a certain extent, but I think the age breakdown, will either prove or disprove certain theories depending on the number of responses.

However the data is gathered, sliced, diced and presented - may - prove or disprove whatever theory or theories the data gatherer wants to prove or disprove.

@CovJet, were all fans of all clubs offered exactly the same questions? Or did you tailor your questions for each club?

 

[clapham_gull]

Still looks incredibly lightweight for something purporting to be supporting a PhD (of which I have no personal experience by the way as a pathetic failed A Level student - but both my offspring (somehow, clearly not genetic) have MScs and I proof-read a lot of their stuff)

Maybe I’m too thick to understand the nuances

I got asked to do a PHD at London University because on a Masters I had accidently found a new way of "simplifying complex mathematical expressions through recursive document transformation."

Because I didn't understand what I had discovered I declined and we left it at that.

True story...

I doubt I would made my millions, but possible could have worn a nice hat.

When I graduated I unfortunately had to walk on the stage after a man who got a PHD in female orgasms. It was like Steps had walked on after Led Zeppelin.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Still looks incredibly lightweight for something purporting to be supporting a PhD (of which I have no personal experience by the way as a pathetic failed A Level student - but both my offspring (somehow, clearly not genetic) have MScs and I proof-read a lot of their stuff)

Maybe I’m too thick to understand the nuances

Perhaps (hopefully) there’s other material. Presumably, there is some sort of ethics this has gone through.

I have an MA, feck knows how if I’m honest, but it was necessary career wise. My son is the brains in my house.

I guess @Harry Wilson's tackle would probably have a good view…. As I say I certainly don’t disagree with you.

 

[dazzer6666]

Perhaps (hopefully) there’s other material. Presumably, there is some sort of ethics this has gone through.

I have an MA, feck knows how if I’m honest, but it was necessary career wise. My son is the brains in my house.

I guess @Harry Wilson's tackle would probably have a good view…. As I say I certainly don’t disagree.

I’m sure there’s other stuff….you’d hope so for 5 years of ‘graft’