[News] Baby murder nurse case

[Is it PotG?]

They also have that weird thing in the USA where the family of a murdered victim can watch the execution by lethal injection of the person responsible.
Not sure what good that does for anybody.Revenge, I guess.
.

Closure.

Having spoken to victims of serious crimes on several occasions, it is a vital part of the process.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

She isn't clearly mentally ill, that's the 'mad vs bad' point that @Tom Hark Preston Park was alluding to. At not one point has a mental health issue been mentioned apart from speculation after, that she has Munchausen's by proxy which also would've been instantly used as a possible defence, if there was any evidence of it. It appears that on the 'mad vs bad' debate, she is in the 'bad' side. Secure units are not for prisoners safety, as far as I know, Isolation is for their safety. To put someone in a secure mental health unit is far more expensive than prison, she will most likely stay in prison & I don't think they'll bother with the 'rehabilitation' part. Well I hope they don't anyway because she should never be released,

I wouldn't call Munchausen's by proxy an illness. It is simply a categorization of a behaviour pattern. It s a 'personality disorder'. It involves harming others (the vulnerable, usually kids - and usually the perpetrator is the mother) with no obvious motive but with the common result of the perpetrator becoming the centre of attention.

This is quite interesting: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/munchausen-by-proxy
This is a longer piece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_another

Despite the widespread cluelessness about the phenomenon, and lack of commonly held view about its causes, there are enough common patterns to it to make it a phenomenon.

I'd not delve into this if you are a casual reader. We soon get into the case of Roy Meadow, and false imprisonment of mothers wrongly accused of harming their kids. It seems it is as easy to miss as it is to falsely attribute.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

One of the dumbest things I’ve heard over the last few days is from (not real) experts clamouring to say that NHS screening for staff depression or any history of depression should be key. [As Letby had had some in her life]. That they shouldn’t be employed by the NHS.

That would eliminate 20% of those at working ages. Discriminating against countless innocents who do a great job.

Instead I lean towards practical solutions. CCTV in wards, always a minimum of two medical personnel with the vulnerable (needs ££££) and a culture where whistle blowers are given immediate respect.

I agree 100%. Up the safeguarding and get the cameras out.

I can't help feeling that if they answered honestly the question 'why did you do it?' the answer would be 'because I could.'

 

[maffew]

The impact statements ought to be played to her in her cell daily through speakers if she was too cowardly to face them in court.

 

[The Clamp]

I wouldn't call Munchausen's by proxy an illness. It is simply a categorization of a behaviour pattern. It s a 'personality disorder'. It involves harming others (the vulnerable, usually kids - and usually the perpetrator is the mother) with no obvious motive but with the common result of the perpetrator becoming the centre of attention.

This is quite interesting: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/munchausen-by-proxy
This is a longer piece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_another

Despite the widespread cluelessness about the phenomenon, and lack of commonly held view about its causes, there are enough common patterns to it to make it a phenomenon.

I'd not delve into this if you are a casual reader. We soon get into the case of Roy Meadow, and false imprisonment of mothers wrongly accused of harming their kids. It seems it is as easy to miss as it is to falsely attribute.

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

 

[marlowe]

I've considered the possibility that there might not be a purely psychological explanation for her actions, because the general consensus of all who knew her well was that it was so alien to her character which is why a lot of her friends are refusing to believe she did it.

Its not so much that they are in denial its just that in their minds they know her so well that they "know" she couldnt do something like that, added to the fact that all the evidence against her is purely circumstantial, albeit pretty damning. But for her friends who know her there is a sufficient element of uncertainty to doubt that circumstantial evidence.

So I was wondering that rather than there being a psychological explanation there is a physical one. In the case of Charles Whitman the mass shooter it was found during his autopsy that he had a small brain tumor that hadn't previously been discovered. There wasn't a definite correlation between his tumour and his actions but it was considered as a possible contributory factor. I wonder if Letby has undergone any physical examinations along those lines.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

That was very brave. You have nothing but my admiration. With best wishes. HWT.

 

[The Clamp]

That was very brave. You have nothing but my admiration. With best wishes. HWT.

Thanks HWT

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I've considered the possibility that there might not be a purely psychological explanation for her actions, because the general consensus of all who knew her well was that it was so alien to her character which is why a lot of her friends are refusing to believe she did it.

Its not so much that they are in denial its just that in their minds they know her so well that they "know" she couldnt do something like that, added to the fact that all the evidence against her is purely circumstantial, albeit pretty damning. But for her friends who know her there is a sufficient element of uncertainty to doubt that circumstantial evidence.

So I was wondering that rather than there being a psychological explanation there is a physical one. In the case of Charles Whitman the mass shooter it was found during his autopsy that he had a small brain tumor that hadn't previously been discovered. There wasn't a definite correlation between his tumour and his actions but it was considered as a possible contributory factor. I wonder if Letby has undergone any physical examinations along those lines.

see post 245.

This is not simply baffling bizarre behaviour. It is behaviour that fits a specific pattern, and has a 'logic' to it. It even seems to come with a degree of denial. In fact it is unusual that in this case the nurse had left rambling notes, effectively confessing to acts of evil.

It isn't likely to be the result of a tumour, but brain scans would be instructive. Perhaps some research may be done.

 

[A1X]

Although I obviously don't condone what the other poster said about austerity, I do disagree - even if it's not the popular view. Forcing convicts to come to the courtroom just gives them a platform, an opportunity when they have nothing else to lose, to mouth off during sentencing. The sentencing and impact statements should have the victims at its heart. Those responsible can rot in the dungeons below the courtroom.

Especially when, as in this case, the sentence was always going to be a foregone conclusion. What is to gain from forcing her to appear? She was a coward the moment she harmed her first tiny victim, the cowardice doesn't start at sentencing.

Just my two cents. Sunak clearly trying to get the 'low-hanging fruit' by changing this law, fine. It's popular opinion and demanded by victims' families. I just have reservations. Which is unlike me, because I am socially quite conservative in many respects.

Laws and rules which are made as a quick reaction to an emotionally charged event seldom, if ever, turn out to be good.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've considered the possibility that there might not be a purely psychological explanation for her actions, because the general consensus of all who knew her well was that it was so alien to her character which is why a lot of her friends are refusing to believe she did it.

Its not so much that they are in denial its just that in their minds they know her so well that they "know" she couldnt do something like that, added to the fact that all the evidence against her is purely circumstantial, albeit pretty damning. But for her friends who know her there is a sufficient element of uncertainty to doubt that circumstantial evidence.

So I was wondering that rather than there being a psychological explanation there is a physical one. In the case of Charles Whitman the mass shooter it was found during his autopsy that he had a small brain tumor that hadn't previously been discovered. There wasn't a definite correlation between his tumour and his actions but it was considered as a possible contributory factor. I wonder if Letby has undergone any physical examinations along those lines.

Some patients of Harold Shipman refused to believe he was capable of killing his victims. His charm and friendly manner, willingness to visit patients at home, were all part of his ‘plan’.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I've considered the possibility that there might not be a purely psychological explanation for her actions, because the general consensus of all who knew her well was that it was so alien to her character which is why a lot of her friends are refusing to believe she did it.

Its not so much that they are in denial its just that in their minds they know her so well that they "know" she couldnt do something like that, added to the fact that all the evidence against her is purely circumstantial, albeit pretty damning. But for her friends who know her there is a sufficient element of uncertainty to doubt that circumstantial evidence.

So I was wondering that rather than there being a psychological explanation there is a physical one. In the case of Charles Whitman the mass shooter it was found during his autopsy that he had a small brain tumor that hadn't previously been discovered. There wasn't a definite correlation between his tumour and his actions but it was considered as a possible contributory factor. I wonder if Letby has undergone any physical examinations along those lines.

I seem to remember Fred West had brain trauma due to a motorcycle accident.

It could be a factor in these cases, but it is just as likely to be caused by childhood experiences such as her being the subject of difficulties at birth.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

Never regret sharing that Clampy.

You and I have clashed over many things previously but we have always remained very cordial towards each other, here I take my hat off to you to be very honest, top man

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

Thank you for sharing.
I'm sorry that I can't think of anything else to write that doesn't feel trite or meaningless.

 

[El Presidente]

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

Blimey, you’ve been through some tough experiences there, fair play to you for having the bravery to share.

 

[Cotton Socks]

I wouldn't call Munchausen's by proxy an illness. It is simply a categorization of a behaviour pattern. It s a 'personality disorder'. It involves harming others (the vulnerable, usually kids - and usually the perpetrator is the mother) with no obvious motive but with the common result of the perpetrator becoming the centre of attention.

This is quite interesting: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/munchausen-by-proxy
This is a longer piece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_another

Despite the widespread cluelessness about the phenomenon, and lack of commonly held view about its causes, there are enough common patterns to it to make it a phenomenon.

I'd not delve into this if you are a casual reader. We soon get into the case of Roy Meadow, and false imprisonment of mothers wrongly accused of harming their kids. It seems it is as easy to miss as it is to falsely attribute.

If it's in the DSM V (or whatever number they're up to now), in the eyes of the law it's an 'illness' and can be used as a defence. In a complete contradiction to 'illness' being a 'defence' it wasn't that long ago that being gay could get you sectioned or imprisonment due to the crossover of breaking the law but it being categorised as an illness in the DSM (less than V, probably III).
I will look at those links and will go down the rabbit hole of Roy Meadow as I've never heard of him.

 

[Seagull58]

This case is beyond shocking and I fear that, rather than identifying the systemic failures and addressing them fully we will be left with the unedifying spectacle of a tabloid witch hunt to punish individual people in the NHS as a kind of sacrifice and then claim the problem is solved.

Imagine the comments some people on this site would make if Letby had been an immigrant?

People's actions are the result of the systemic failure. You can't absolve them of blame. The Met Police is systemically racist but you still root out and punish the racists.

 

[Seagull58]

Frankly, yes. Have you read the analysis by the barrister?

What I would want, is for the defendant to be taken into a room where the judge can be seen, and the sentence very audible so they have to listen to it, and no minimum wage security guard gets injured trying to force the prisoner into a van and a court room.

The poor babies' families feel cheated that she wasn't there to hear her sentence and for them to see justice served in person.

 

[Seagull58]

A whole life sentence indeed. I hope you aren't suggesting I don't agree with that?

I was simply commenting negatively at an expressed wish she gets more than that (a bit of maiming seemed to be implicit), as if that's all we need to contemplate. It has always annoyed me how people emote for capital/physical retribution (what was once known as the hanging and flogging brigade) without any apparent interest in anyone taking any steps to mitigate against these things happening in the first place. The fact that she was allowed to carry on in the way she was makes me very angry.

Thanks for clarifying. All good.

 

[Cotton Socks]

It’s a dark and heavy subject. But important to talk about. So thank you for the link.

It’s very misunderstood and people, including medical professionals simply can’t believe a mother who presents as so caring could actually be harming their own child.

My abuse was only stopped when professionals intervened when my mother trying tried to organise an operation in the U.S that would have very likely put me in a wheelchair for life. This was when I was 14. An operation doctors in the U.K. refused to perform.
As a child she fed me on rice and one piece of fish a day, every day for a long time to induce illness and malnourishment. Among lots of other things since I was a newborn. So almost 14 years of it.
To this day, her side of the family refuse to acknowledge it.

Sorry, talking about me again but my point is, it’s an unbelievable condition / disorder because it goes against everything we believe about caring for children. Which is how it goes undetected for so long. Along with the level of manipulation and deception that goes with it.

Anyway. I’ll likely regret sharing that so I’ll end it there. And it’s not my thread.

Don't regret sharing that. It's important that people know it happens. I've seen it happen to 3 children of the same family & although it wasn't as extreme as the awful things that happened to you, no one ever considered it. The eldest child sees it now but won't admit it happened. I think they have guilt issues of not seeing the pattern earlier & it happening to their younger siblings. They know it & I know it but as there was 'no harm actually done', in their eyes is not worth upsetting the family about. Denial is so much easier. Just to add the 'children' are not children anymore & now they're in control of their own lives, they are no longer ill. Their mother still is though with mystery illnesses. Sorry to hear that happened to you & glad someone intervened.