Ashley Barnes - what would you have done?

[B.W.]

It's a poll on a fan website just after we've lost a player, it doesn't mean anything much beyond the current and probably fleeting opinion of a group of people who by their nature are incredibly fickle (that is, football fans) without any real substantive knowledge of the overall picture. There are several reasons for why the percentage is so high.

1) It's barnes. There are people who openly admit to not liking him, and there are people who try to claim neutrality while never really being fair to him, and would probably be willing to let him got for nothing now than keep him.
2) It's almost a cliche of football fans to rate players until they choose to go elsewhere - just look at the palace thread back in the last window where they were being mocked for raving about targets, until the targets turned them down, at which point they were not good enough. That happens when teams lose players too.
3) Some people just look at the money and haven't considered the points I raised.
4) Look at the feeling towards Murray. While people would have taken him back because they liked him, not many people saw him as up to the championship at the end of 2011/12 when he had fewer goals than CMS and Barnes. The following season, people's opinion would have changed dramatically after his 30 goal season. People's opinion on the rightness of this decision will depend on our performance without Barnes, and Barnes' performance with Burnley
5) You have to be a fool to think the poll result would be the same if come May we haven't replaced him, and we miss out on the play offs by a small margin while Barnes fires in goals for Burnley that clinches them promotion?
6) People, like me, who feel we don't know enough, won't have responded.


I'm not like the posters who write off Conway after a handful of appearances, I don't dismiss players because they have a poor run of form. I like to wait and see how things pan out before deciding on whether the board were right or wrong.

Come the end of the transfer window/season I might think the club were right. I might think they were right in theory but unfortunately the replacement they brought in didn't live up to expectations, or I might, and many of your 90% may, decide actually, with all the info (about what contribution we miss, what we get from any replacement, what Barnes produces as Burnley etc), known that it was the wrong decision.

I think it's a shame you seem to think there's something wrong with not rushing to a decision, to waiting and seeing how things pan out before passing judgement.

But again, that is irrelevant to this thread, which isn't about whether the board are right or wrong, but about what each responder would do.


This Barnes debate has been going for a few days, and all you have said in justification for selling him is about the money now rather than nothing in the summer. You have not, in the posts I've seen, considered what he brought to the team. (You have complimented him, suggesting an appreciation for what he brought to the team, but that was always separate to comments about how much money you can get for him). If your reason for selling someone who by your own words has been "playing brilliantly" is that we won't get anything for him in summer, it is going to seem like you're only interested in money.

So you don't want to vote, but have written several essays on why Barnes should have been retained. Yeah, right. And you accept that I have recognised Barnes' strengths but yet don't recognise this! Contradicting yourself. Brilliant!

 

[SeagullinExile]

Exactly what the club are doing.

Taken the words from my mouth.

 

[Acker79]

So you don't want to vote, but have written several essays on why Barnes should have been retained. Yeah, right. And you accept that I have recognised Barnes' strengths but yet don't recognise this! Contradicting yourself. Brilliant!

Oh, ffs. Why do you keep misrepresenting my point of view? I've written several "essays" explaining why I won't answer the question yet (that is I don't feel we know enough yet to come to a reasonable conclusion). I have not said the board are wrong.

 

[B.W.]

Oh, ffs. Why do you keep misrepresenting my point of view? I've written several "essays" explaining why I won't answer the question yet (that is I don't feel we know enough yet to come to a reasonable conclusion). I have not said the board are wrong.

Well, sorry Acker79, but your essay 'titles' says one thing (I can't decide now), and your essay details say another (I think the board has probably made a huge mistake). Just my interpretation. Perhaps concision and clarity are not your strengths?

 

[The Rivet]

There's a lot of differing opinions on what the club should have done with Ashley Barnes.

What would you have done?

Most of us I think would be of a mind to sell. Ashley didn't want to sign a new contract, so definitely sell for cash now. He was never going to be number one choice when every striker was fit. I think the club did the right thing. I am grateful for Mr Barnes' input to this club. Good luck to him.

 

[Acker79]

Well, sorry Acker79, but your essay 'titles' says one thing (I can't decide now), and your essay details say another (I think the board has probably made a huge mistake). Just my interpretation. Perhaps concision and clarity are not your strengths?

You're just taking the piss now, aren't you? You're sat at your computer chuckling at how you are deliberately twisting my words in some pathetic trolling attempt to wind me up. hat on earth are you talking about? titles being contradicted by details? What on earth are my titles?

If we had sold Murray in January, we would have missed out on I think half of his goals. In a crude hypothetical, if you take his goals away we lose eight or ten points (depending on if he left before January 3rd or by the end of January). That was the difference between winning the division and finishing in the play offs. If we sell Barnes we miss out on his goals and assists, clearing headers, defence-alleviating free kicks won, and general all round hard work.

For me, the issue isn't simply that if we wait til the summer we miss out on his money.

Barnes is on course for ten goals this season and seven or eight assists. That is a significant contribution to any team, but especially so to one who doesn't have a 25 goal striker this season (thanks to injury/suspension).

How much money does reaching the play off bring in? How much money does being successful in the play offs bring in? A decent cup run?

Losing the contribution that Barnes brings to the team could be more costly to us than losing the 750k-1m+wages for the rest of the season.

Unless we replace him with equal or better.

Without the knowledge of who we have lined up, who we might try to go for and have a good chance of getting, I don't think I could answer the question.

With no one else lined up, I wouldn't sell. With someone appropriate lined up, I'd reluctantly sell. And this all assumes that the contract on offer was fair (both in wage level and length - I think some people forget who important contract length is to some player and how short some of the contracts we've been offering lately are, Ince was signed to a 2.5 year contract that is being presented as "long term").

There are too many unknowns.

Nonsense. Complete and utter BS. You are reading what you want into it. I don't know if it's easier for you to dismiss my comments about being pragmatic, taking a bigger picture view by rather than address my points, or if you've just already decided I don't like the board and so twist every comment I make to paint it as a dig at senior management.


For what it's worth I didn't vote because, as I said above, I don't have enough info. I fully expect the board did take all those things into consideration. Unlike you who seem to have just looked at the 750k now v nothing at the end of the season to make your decision. I have enough respect for the board to assume they do know whether they have a target to replace him that they are confident of landing.


But let's go through them:

If we had sold Murray in January, we would have missed out on I think half of his goals. This suggests you think we should have held onto Barnes (the board decided not to). In a crude hypothetical, if you take his goals away we lose eight or ten points (depending on if he left before January 3rd or by the end of January). That was the difference between winning the division and finishing in the play offs. If we sell Barnes we miss out on his goals and assists, clearing headers, defence-alleviating free kicks won, and general all round hard work. Further reinforcing your view that the board were wrong to let Barnes go.​

No. What this suggests is that if you sell a player you don't just gain any money you get for them, you also lose what they contribute on the pitch, and shows the difference that can have at the end of the season. This illustrates that it isn't a simple decision over 750k now v nothing in the summer. This is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

For me, the issue isn't simply that if we wait til the summer we miss out on his money.

Barnes is on course for ten goals this season and seven or eight assists. That is a significant contribution to any team, but especially so to one who doesn't have a 25 goal striker this season (thanks to injury/suspension). And again.​

This is about what Barnes would have, in theory, contributed, and how it is not something to lightly dismiss. This is again something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

How much money does reaching the play off bring in? How much money does being successful in the play offs bring in? A decent cup run?

Losing the contribution that Barnes brings to the team could be more costly to us than losing the 750k-1m+wages for the rest of the season. And so it goes on.​

Here I am summarising the issue that makes it a more difficult decision than the 750k now v nothing in the summer argument that so many people seem to reduce it to. Once again, this is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

Unless we replace him with equal or better. No faith that the board will replace.​

No. This is me expecting the response to my above point to be along the lines of "yeah, but we could get someone else in", so addressing that point to make my response to the poll question a full response. It is also the first step in my overall point that I don't have enough info to answer whether or not I would sell, run down the contract, or pay up. You guessed, it, this is something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

Without the knowledge of who we have lined up, who we might try to go for and have a good chance of getting, I don't think I could answer the question. But if you had faith in the board, you wouldn't be making those points.​

Yes, I would. Because the question is not "do you think the board have done the right thing?" the question is "what would you have done". What I would have done would depend on these very points. It is very important to answering the question at hand, regardless of what faith I have in the board.

With no one else lined up, I wouldn't sell. With someone appropriate lined up, I'd reluctantly sell. And this all assumes that the contract on offer was fair (both in wage level and length - I think some people forget who important contract length is to some player and how short some of the contracts we've been offering lately are, Ince was signed to a 2.5 year contract that is being presented as "long term"). So no faith that the board made a good enough offer to Barnes in terms of wages and term.​

Actually, it's an acknowledgement of the complexity of contract deals, different offers. People keep talking about the contract as if we would have to increase the weekly fee to the point of bankruptcy, when perhaps it was more about the length of the deal, which if we can afford it now one would assume it wouldn't bankrupt us if it was lengthened. That a "fair" deal is subjective.

It is also an acknowledgement that contract deals are negotiations. You go in low (or with the smallest increase you can), the player comes in high (or with the largest increase) and then you negotiate, go back and forth until either meets a cut off point or you make a deal you both accept. The offer on the table could be the clubs first offer, that they might be willing to negotiate at the end of the season, but because they don't like doing deals during the season they have put negotiations on hold (I know Ince signed now, but we have plenty of options in midfield at the moment, so aren't beholden to one player, whereas we have one fit permanent striker other than Barnes, his negotiation position would be stronger now than in the summer, so we would want to stick to that end of season policy), or it could be their final offer because it's all they are willing or able to pay him. This is important in deciding if the third option in this poll about what I would do is a realistic option, and again is something I don't know. It is, however, something I am sure the board themselves considered, but that is irrelevant because in this thread Bozza is asking what I would do.

It's a poll on a fan website just after we've lost a player, it doesn't mean anything much beyond the current and probably fleeting opinion of a group of people who by their nature are incredibly fickle (that is, football fans) without any real substantive knowledge of the overall picture. There are several reasons for why the percentage is so high.

1) It's barnes. There are people who openly admit to not liking him, and there are people who try to claim neutrality while never really being fair to him, and would probably be willing to let him got for nothing now than keep him.
2) It's almost a cliche of football fans to rate players until they choose to go elsewhere - just look at the palace thread back in the last window where they were being mocked for raving about targets, until the targets turned them down, at which point they were not good enough. That happens when teams lose players too.
3) Some people just look at the money and haven't considered the points I raised.
4) Look at the feeling towards Murray. While people would have taken him back because they liked him, not many people saw him as up to the championship at the end of 2011/12 when he had fewer goals than CMS and Barnes. The following season, people's opinion would have changed dramatically after his 30 goal season. People's opinion on the rightness of this decision will depend on our performance without Barnes, and Barnes' performance with Burnley
5) You have to be a fool to think the poll result would be the same if come May we haven't replaced him, and we miss out on the play offs by a small margin while Barnes fires in goals for Burnley that clinches them promotion?
6) People, like me, who feel we don't know enough, won't have responded.


I'm not like the posters who write off Conway after a handful of appearances, I don't dismiss players because they have a poor run of form. I like to wait and see how things pan out before deciding on whether the board were right or wrong.

Come the end of the transfer window/season I might think the club were right. I might think they were right in theory but unfortunately the replacement they brought in didn't live up to expectations, or I might, and many of your 90% may, decide actually, with all the info (about what contribution we miss, what we get from any replacement, what Barnes produces as Burnley etc), known that it was the wrong decision.

I think it's a shame you seem to think there's something wrong with not rushing to a decision, to waiting and seeing how things pan out before passing judgement.

But again, that is irrelevant to this thread, which isn't about whether the board are right or wrong, but about what each responder would do.


This Barnes debate has been going for a few days, and all you have said in justification for selling him is about the money now rather than nothing in the summer. You have not, in the posts I've seen, considered what he brought to the team. (You have complimented him, suggesting an appreciation for what he brought to the team, but that was always separate to comments about how much money you can get for him). If your reason for selling someone who by your own words has been "playing brilliantly" is that we won't get anything for him in summer, it is going to seem like you're only interested in money.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with it yet. I'm waiting to see how things pan out.

If that is still not clear enough for you to understand, I pity you.

 

[The Rivet]

You're just taking the piss now, aren't you? You're sat at your computer chuckling at how you are deliberately twisting my words in some pathetic trolling attempt to wind me up. hat on earth are you talking about? titles being contradicted by details? What on earth are my titles?










If that is still not clear enough for you to understand, I pity you.

Phew that was exhausting reading. I need a lie down.

 

[Acker79]

Phew that was exhausting reading. I need a lie down.

...

 

[The Rivet]

...

Please don't play with me with your tongue makes me feel weird!

 

[Invicta]

If he wasn't going to sign again then selling makes sense. If all goes to plan for rest of season then he would largely be on the bench. Maybe the fee will be re-invested.

 

[um bongo molongo]

It's a step though, isn't it? Ignore your own pay structure and internal valuations.

Was our internal valuation right though? Barnes and his agent obviously felt he was worth more, as did Burnley, who aren't exactly forest/Leicester/qpr (or Pompey under 'arry) in terms of the money they splash around. I think we'll regret this one, an improving player who scored 20 goals in a league one season at 20/21 and a fair few in the champ despite being in and out of the side and played out of position a lot.

 

[Zen Frenzy]

Even as a Barnes fan I think the club have done precisely the right thing. Hopefully a decent fee secured to avoid the prospect of him walking away for nothing in a few months time. Leaves on good terms as an excellent servant IMO. Looking forward to seeing how the front line and back-up is reconfigured later today. Also looking forward to seeing who a nearby dribbling half-wit will be venting his spleen on next.

 

[Springal]

I see Oscar has 'urged' the scouting network to find him a replacement this window. Did we really sell him, with no replacement in mind ?

 

[Baldseagull]

I would rather have kept him and risked losing out on a fee, but then it isn't my money. I can't see us getting a player of his qualities in for the cash we got for him, if there was one out there Burnley would have gone for them in the summer when we knocked them back. Burnley have got a steal.
There are a lot who seem to think Ash would not be a Prem player, but I bet he is named in Burnleys squad next season if they go up.

 

[paul pring]

had to,just use the money and sign defoe

 

[Return of the Rev]

I would have done nothing unless i was albion manager,then i would have looked at all manner of things that we are not aware of and then made an informed decision.

 

[c0lz]

I would rather have kept him and risked losing out on a fee, but then it isn't my money. I can't see us getting a player of his qualities in for the cash we got for him, if there was one out there Burnley would have gone for them in the summer when we knocked them back. Burnley have got a steal.
There are a lot who seem to think Ash would not be a Prem player, but I bet he is named in Burnleys squad next season if they go up.

Don't get this argument quote: I can't see us getting a player of his qualities in for the cash we got for him.. But then it would cost us more in the summer without the funds we have just received for him. and have we not done the same in the past got someone cheap due to their contracts running out, Its swings & roundabouts.

 

[B.W.]

You're just taking the piss now, aren't you? You're sat at your computer chuckling at how you are deliberately twisting my words in some pathetic trolling attempt to wind me up. hat on earth are you talking about? titles being contradicted by details? What on earth are my titles?










If that is still not clear enough for you to understand, I pity you.

I'm clear, thank you, and was before your latest epic. You are, in a way, right of course. In the sense that nobody can predict the future (obviously). However, most of us are 'brave' enough to not sit on the fence at this stage, and say whether or not we think the club have made the right decision based on what we know now. You, however, seem to want to sit on the fence in the face of all logic that the club had very little choice but to sell a player who refused to sign the shiny new contract on offer to him. TBH I pity you.

 

[Acker79]

Don't get this argument quote: I can't see us getting a player of his qualities in for the cash we got for him.. But then it would cost us more in the summer without the funds we have just received for him. and have we not done the same in the past got someone cheap due to their contracts running out, Its swings & roundabouts.

By most accounts, fees in the January window are inflated, which would mean it would be cheaper to find a replacement for him in the summer. I don't know if the difference is as much as £750k, I suppose it depends on the value (i.e. 0.5m to 1.25m is a bigger jump proportionally than 3m-3.75m).

We also could have picked up someone else who was out of contract for nothing in the summer rather than paying for someone in the last few months of their contract now (and not having enough in the budget to get the out of contract player in the summer). Swings and roundabouts, indeed.

 

[Acker79]

I'm clear, thank you, and was before your latest epic. You are, in a way, right of course. In the sense that nobody can predict the future (obviously). However, most of us are 'brave' enough to not sit on the fence at this stage, and say whether or not we think the club have made the right decision based on what we know now. You, however, seem to want to sit on the fence in the face of all logic that the club had very little choice but to sell a player who refused to sign the shiny new contract on offer to him. TBH I pity you.

Yeah, rushing to conclusions when you don't know much about anything is so brave. You are my hero.