[Albion] Article - Football Changed and Chris Hughton Didn’t Keep Up

[Jolly Red Giant]

I'll concede I'm wrong when he leads a team to higher than 15th in the PL playing entertaining football.

How many teams consistently are placed higher than 15th in the PL playing entertaining football - how long have they been in the PL - and how much do they spend?

Not contradicted I notice.

Consider it contradicted

Must be really easy running a PL club when you're spending your days in another country listing to Johnny Giles' load of old balls and believing everything that's on spotrac.

There are sources other than spotrac - and its a lot easier to run a club when a Russian oligarch or an Arab Shiek puts £1billion into the club.

As for Johnny Giles - you should try listening to him sometimes - you will find his interviews on podcasts.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Bloom is a professional gambler and analyses the odds - and he is making a spectacular misjudgment if he thinks he can do what you are arguing.

I suspect Bloom thinks that the Brighton squad is better than it actually is - and that all he needs is a different manager - to get more out of the same resources - time will tell but without a massive cash injection Brighton will struggle next season (and would have had Houghton remained anyway in those circumstances).

Potter's team in Sweden contained English players who had previously plied their trade in non-league football in the UK - his team at Swansea was a mixture of journeymen and academy players - he has never been in the situation he is in now - good luck to him and Brighton, but there is a tough road ahead.


I get it - you don't think that money trumps all in the PL - the evidence suggest otherwise.

Potter has an over-hyped reputation - the claim that he worked miracles without any money with Östersund is false (the clubs had money) - if you really want to see spectacular success with a Scandanavian team then look at the work of Nils Arne Eggen at Rosenborg, taking them from the bottom of the Norwegian second division to the group phase of CL 11 times in 13 seasons. A lot of the 'new' approach of Potter are actually copying the philosophy of Eggen from more than 25 years ago and it requires a very special skill set of coaches and players to pull it off.

Way, way off target, in my view. Primarily for the apparent dismissal of the wherewithal of Mr Bloom and Mr Potter. I would argue that the club is in the best position it has ever been in it's history.

You, on the other hand, sound like the room service guy in a swanky hotel who was called up to supply more champers to a European Cup winner in bed with a Miss World. "George, George" he said. "Where did it all go wrong?"

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I would argue that the club is in the best position it has ever been in it's history.

Of course it is - the club is in the PL for a third season

You, on the other hand, sound like the room service guy in a swanky hotel who was called up to supply more champers to a European Cup winner in bed with a Miss World. "George, George" he said. "Where did it all go wrong?"

I would drink the champers, tell the European cup winner to go f*ck himself and walk off home to bed.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Of course it is - the club is in the PL for a third season


I would drink the champers, tell the European cup winner to go f*ck himself and walk off home to bed.

And if you did that, you'd be sacked in the morning.

That George Best anecdote is apparently true.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

And if you did that, you'd be sacked in the morning.

Yea - but it would be good to stick it to some overpaid pompous assh*le with more hair gel than sense.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yea - but it would be good to stick it to some overpaid pompous assh*le with more hair gel than sense.

Don't let emotion sabotage your narrative

 

[Guinness Boy]

There are sources other than spotrac - and its a lot easier to run a club when a Russian oligarch or an Arab Shiek puts £1billion into the club.

As for Johnny Giles - you should try listening to him sometimes - you will find his interviews on podcasts.

I asked for your source. You said spotrac. Frankly, you keep changing direction with almost every post. As for Johnny I've worked in Dublin and Galway in the past and seen plenty of games on RTE.

It's amusing because Andy Naylor seemed to insinuate NSC was calling CH a dinosaur (it wasn't). Giles IS a dinosaur.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Don't let emotion sabotage your narrative

That would not be emotion - it would be cold, clear and calculated - just like the champers.

Life has to have such moments - they make great memories.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I asked for your source. You said spotrac.

Spotrac is a source - and it has a good reputation. There are others -

Now - do you have evidence to refute what I said in relation to spending and salaries?

Giles IS a dinosaur.

Giles - even at 78 years of age - still has the sharpest mind of any football analyst working today - and I say that with a degree of certainty. He can seen trends developing long before most - and can predict outcomes that no one else sees. The guy has a remarkable football brain and he makes most other commentators look like abject amateurs in comparison.

 

[perseus]

That would not be emotion - it would be cold, clear and calculated - just like the champers.

Life has to have such moments - they make great memories.

Inductive or deductive reasoning?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Inductive or deductive reasoning?

dialectical

 

[Guinness Boy]

Giles - even at 78 years of age - still has the sharpest mind of any football analyst working today - and I say that with a degree of certainty. He can seen trends developing long before most - and can predict outcomes that no one else sees. The guy has a remarkable football brain and he makes most other commentators look like abject amateurs in comparison.

How can you say something subjective with certainty?

Giles backed Roy Keane. Ken Early took him to bits. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...eutralises-philosophies-of-the-past-1.3874358

 

[perseus]

Patterns of Play

dialectical

politics ?

Inductive reasoning could win the League or get relegated ?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

How can you say something subjective with certainty?

Giles backed Roy Keane. Ken Early took him to bits. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...eutralises-philosophies-of-the-past-1.3874358

remind me again who Ken Early played for?

Oh yea - the Phil in Trinners.

 

[Guinness Boy]

remind me again who Ken Early played for?

Oh yea - the Phil in Trinners.

And you played for........

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

And you played for........

What has that to do with anything - I am not a national journalist and you are not quoting me as a reference.

The points Early makes are rubbish in my opinion - the player with the ball is always the biggest threat on the football pitch (and that applies in pretty much every sport).

 

[Guinness Boy]

What has that to do with anything - I am not a national journalist and you are not quoting me as a reference.

The points Early makes are rubbish in my opinion - the player with the ball is always the biggest threat on the football pitch (and that applies in pretty much every sport).

You're constantly on here telling us how it works and yet your comeback to an analytical article showing how Liverpool dominate teams and using it to refute Keane et al is to fall back on exactly the same thing Keane always says - "never played the game". Either you *can* comment as a fan / journalist or you *can't*. There's no such thing as one rule for one and a different rule for another.

Your last sentence just shows how out of touch you are. If that's what CH thought then I massively stand by my piece.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Your last sentence just shows how out of touch you are. If that's what CH thought then I massively stand by my piece.

The player with the ball is the only one that can score - duh

 

[Guinness Boy]

The player with the ball is the only one that can score - duh

Not when they're taking a throw in.
Not when they're taking an indirect free kick.
Not when there's a deflection.

I'd like to see them do it from their own six yard box when they have someone like Mane or Firmino bearing down on them.

I'd like to see them do it when they're holding the ball in their own corner flag with 30 seconds left of extra time.

But you obviously haven't read the article you are decrying properly. The whole point is that the press and pressure makes the person in possession of the ball, who may be 10 yards from his own goal, or facing the wrong way, give it away to an attacker who then becomes in possession of the ball in an area and situation in which he can score.

One of my biggest issues with the last months of CH was that, when this press occurred, our player with the ball did not and could not score. What, in fact he did was either whack it up to the unsupported Murray who tried to win a free kick or whacked it to the opposition centre back, who launched another attack, or put it out for a throw (in which you have possession of the ball but are not allowed to score).

Duh.

 

[BBassic]

Interesting discussion this; precisely what good writing / journalism is meant to do.

I wanted to touch on the moneyball side of things. Is the general assumption from most that the data isn't yet useful enough to be considered reliable in football? Apologies if I've phrased that poorly.

I've been thinking about it, in terms of centre backs specifically, and stats like tackles attempted per 90, successful tackles per 90 are ones I'd consider useful but not nearly as useful as successful interceptions per 90 because that stat indicates to me that the defence is in a position, more often than not, that means they don't need to make a tackle attempt which has a 50% chance of succeeding or failing.