Are you Catholic? Do you give a damn that the Pope is coming?

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I believe I have - please elaborate...

Your analogy is basically this: The Queen, an unelected public figure and head of state who judiciously avoids public comment on peoples lifestyles and value systems is, in some way, comparable to the Pontiff, Head of a religious sect who spends his entire life moralising and interfering with peoples lives whilst systematically covering up peadophilia on a massive scale (proven) and welcoming Holocaust deniers into the church (proven)..he is also proven to be an ex Nazi and his "state", or at least its current incarnation,was set up in collusion with Fascism.

The Church of which he is head has a long and unpleasant association with anti-semites and SS war criminals which he ignores and refuses to apologise for.

Because of his religion there are millions of Africans who are at risk of contractiong HIV as they are bound by papal decree to not use condoms.

We, the citizens of the United Kingdom, are expected to overlook these crimes against humanity because the Pope is a "Head of State" whilst his pontificate are making thinly veiled racist comments on our demographics and (probably) our lack of moral fibre.

Benedict makes assertions based on principles of faith and traditional ideals which run entirely contrary to the secular inclinations of our society yet we are supposed to accord him respect as an "elected" head of state.

You, Sir, are either completely blind to these truths or are happy to overlook them. I put it to you that you are wrong to assert that "there is no right or wrong" in relation to this debate. In fact you are demonstrably wrong.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Great Britain did not exist as a nation. before the 18th century. FACT.


More to the point why does a socialist welcome the visit of an absolutist ruler who is on the far right of just about any issue I can think of?

Yes but a sovereign nations on the British Isles had...

I think the quote was "bit of a socialist"!!

You don't want to hear the full story (if you really do PM me), but I believe in the separation of religion and state, and I am a (slightly iconoclastic at times) follower of the Catholic faith - and believe the bible and the acts of most grass-roots clergy support left wing ideals.

I would like to see a MUCH more progressive and liberal Catholic church, but I don't agree that Benedict is on the far right of all issues.

 

[philsussex]

Non Catholic and would rather he stayed away unless he or the corrupt Catholic church pay for every expense the boring old cvnt's visit will incur.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

To go back to the Original Question.

I will not be welcoming him to my Country.

He must stop his Anti Stem cell research objections - research that could save the lives of many people.

In one fell swoop the Pope could save millions of lives in Africa by endorsing the use of contraception.

He must instigate a detailed INDEPENDENT investigation concerning ALL child abuse cases carried out by Catholic priests. (not a whitewash by the Church themselves.)

He must change his stance on homosexuality and women priests.

Until he does these, then he is not welcome in my Country.

As opposed to saying 'this', I heartily endorse this statement. The Vatican needs to evolve and modernise. They are selfish and archaic.

 

[Tony Towner's Fridge]

Couldn't give a flying fig about him, his middle ages religion or indeed any organised religion.It all stinks of commercial Godselling.
Luckily I am out of Glasgow tomorrow , playing golf and enjoying myself on the Isle of Arran, whilst the Nazi sympathising 14th century kiddyfiddler visits, at my expense.

TNBA

TTF

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Prove to me your superior intelligence by explaining who's right about this religion thing that from your response you are very passionate about- the Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims or Hindus as they have all, over the centuries and right up to now, wreaked misery on their own (topical!) and others in the name of their religions.

Jeddi gets my vote!

Weren't the Jedis all killed by a in civil war by Dark Jedis?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Weren't the Jedis all killed by a in civil war by Dark Jedis?

And the good jedis are always persecuting the citizens of the Empire who all seem quite happy working for it.

 

[8ace]

The Empire had stormtroopers. Who else do we know had stormtroopers

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Your analogy is basically this: The Queen, an unelected public figure and head of state who judiciously avoids public comment on peoples lifestyles and value systems is, in some way, comparable to the Pontiff, Head of a religious sect who spends his entire life moralising and interfering with peoples lives whilst systematically covering up peadophilia on a massive scale (proven) and welcoming Holocaust deniers into the church (proven)..he is also proven to be an ex Nazi and his "state", or at least its current incarnation,was set up in collusion with Fascism.

The Church of which he is head has a long and unpleasant association with anti-semites and SS war criminals which he ignores and refuses to apologise for.

Because of his religion there are millions of Africans who are at risk of contractiong HIV as they are bound by papal decree to not use condoms.

We, the citizens of the United Kingdom, are expected to overlook these crimes against humanity because the Pope is a "Head of State" whilst his pontificate are making thinly veiled racist comments on our demographics and (probably) our lack of moral fibre.

Benedict makes assertions based on principles of faith and traditional ideals which run entirely contrary to the secular inclinations of our society yet we are supposed to accord him respect as an "elected" head of state.

You, Sir, are either completely blind to these truths or are happy to overlook them. I put it to you that you are wrong to assert that "there is no right or wrong" in relation to this debate. In fact you are demonstrably wrong.

The analogy with the Queen was purely addressing the political nature of a state visit, which seems to be the main sticking point for a lot of people. I stand by that.

I appreciate your hypothetical bravery in saying that not all people had to join the Hitler Youth - but lets reserve judgement. By your logic, we should have written off 2 entire generations of Germans completely.

The Vatican State was negotiated whilst Italy had a fascist PM - I would hardly call that collusion given (as said already) that it was the formalisation of a state that had existed for 1000+ years already.

Personally I disagree with the Church's stance on artificial contraception. To hold the Pope personally responsible for AIDS is seriously flawed however. Firstly - he only came to the job 6 years ago. Secondly the Church's teaching is primarily abstinence before contraception becomes an issue. And thirdly, in a lot of the Sub-Saharan states where the HIV rate is high, Catholicism is not the dominant denomination. But again, I do agree the church should allow artificial contraception.

Things I can't disagree with:

1. The issue of paedophilia. An embarassment (too weak a word) to Catholics throughout the world, and still not properly addressed.

2. The Vatican's refusal to condemn the Nazis. Although I would add that the grass-roots priests often did not follow this and indeed many were executed in the concentration camps.

I hope the above proves that I have considered the place of the church and I am not "blind to these TRUTHS (as you call them)".

There are undoubtedly flaws with the leadership of the church, but many of them are far from being black and white. I've defended the right of a state visit based on legal ideas (although again not to say that the taxpayers should pay for it). I won't defend the place of the Catholic Church as sacrosanct, as that is a matter for individual beliefs. I will, however, defend the positive values that its teaching stands for and the right for Catholics to enjoy the coming few days.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

And the good jedis are always persecuting the citizens of the Empire who all seem quite happy working for it.

Yes, how many innocent working class members of The Empire were eliminated on the Death Star.

Back to the Pope, I hope he can forgive all of the non-Catholic heretics who live in this country and he takes back the "Defender of the Faith" title off the Queen.



Oh and Cardinal Newman was a f***ing top school too.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

The Empire had stormtroopers. Who else do we know had stormtroopers

They were originally Clone Troopers.

 

[Martinf]

Your analogy is basically this: The Queen, an unelected public figure and head of state who judiciously avoids public comment on peoples lifestyles and value systems is, in some way, comparable to the Pontiff, Head of a religious sect who spends his entire life moralising and interfering with peoples lives whilst systematically covering up peadophilia on a massive scale (proven) and welcoming Holocaust deniers into the church (proven)..he is also proven to be an ex Nazi and his "state", or at least its current incarnation,was set up in collusion with Fascism.

The Church of which he is head has a long and unpleasant association with anti-semites and SS war criminals which he ignores and refuses to apologise for.

Because of his religion there are millions of Africans who are at risk of contractiong HIV as they are bound by papal decree to not use condoms.

We, the citizens of the United Kingdom, are expected to overlook these crimes against humanity because the Pope is a "Head of State" whilst his pontificate are making thinly veiled racist comments on our demographics and (probably) our lack of moral fibre.

Benedict makes assertions based on principles of faith and traditional ideals which run entirely contrary to the secular inclinations of our society yet we are supposed to accord him respect as an "elected" head of state.

You, Sir, are either completely blind to these truths or are happy to overlook them. I put it to you that you are wrong to assert that "there is no right or wrong" in relation to this debate. In fact you are demonstrably wrong.

I'm a catholic but there isn't much you say Bev H that I would disagree with. However, I do feel sorry for the vast majority of priests and others who do good work in many countries across the globe - they help people and make a difference to their communities, especially in poorer countries and are generally a force for good. It's a shame we dont ever get to hear about these people because of the berks in the vatican floating around in their rich robes coming out with 'rules' that belong to medieval times.

 

[Don Quixote]

He's not welcome by me, murderer and as good as kiddie molester

Who has he murdered you deluded man?

 

[The Modfather]

To go back to the Original Question.

I will not be welcoming him to my Country.

He must stop his Anti Stem cell research objections - research that could save the lives of many people.

In one fell swoop the Pope could save millions of lives in Africa by endorsing the use of contraception.

He must instigate a detailed INDEPENDENT investigation concerning ALL child abuse cases carried out by Catholic priests. (not a whitewash by the Church themselves.)

He must change his stance on homosexuality and women priests.

Until he does these, then he is not welcome in my Country.

This post sums it up perfectly.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

The analogy with the Queen was purely addressing the political nature of a state visit, which seems to be the main sticking point for a lot of people. I stand by that.

I appreciate your hypothetical bravery in saying that not all people had to join the Hitler Youth - but lets reserve judgement. By your logic, we should have written off 2 entire generations of Germans completely.

The Vatican State was negotiated whilst Italy had a fascist PM - I would hardly call that collusion given (as said already) that it was the formalisation of a state that had existed for 1000+ years already.

Personally I disagree with the Church's stance on artificial contraception. To hold the Pope personally responsible for AIDS is seriously flawed however. Firstly - he only came to the job 6 years ago. Secondly the Church's teaching is primarily abstinence before contraception becomes an issue. And thirdly, in a lot of the Sub-Saharan states where the HIV rate is high, Catholicism is not the dominant denomination. But again, I do agree the church should allow artificial contraception.

Things I can't disagree with:

1. The issue of paedophilia. An embarassment (too weak a word) to Catholics throughout the world, and still not properly addressed.

2. The Vatican's refusal to condemn the Nazis. Although I would add that the grass-roots priests often did not follow this and indeed many were executed in the concentration camps.

I hope the above proves that I have considered the place of the church and I am not "blind to these TRUTHS (as you call them)".

There are undoubtedly flaws with the leadership of the church, but many of them are far from being black and white. I've defended the right of a state visit based on legal ideas (although again not to say that the taxpayers should pay for it). I won't defend the place of the Catholic Church as sacrosanct, as that is a matter for individual beliefs. I will, however, defend the positive values that its teaching stands for and the right for Catholics to enjoy the coming few days.

FFS The Catholic lay community have an absolute obligation to challenge ALL of the TRUTHS I have outlined.

To pick and choose which elements of Benedicts edicts you happen to agree with is just moral cowardice.

If you don't challenge the EVILS he espouses then your "faith" is of no merit whatsever. The entire edifice needs tearing down and beginning again with total contrition.

Is it OK for this Hitler Jugend prelate who was involved root and branch with the cover ups of mass kiddy fiddling by vampire priests..the victims of which are condemned to a living hell of guilt and self loathing...that is if they don't commit the cardinal sin of topping themselves..to continue to spout his medieval drivel from Romeis a crime on an epic scale.

Imagine if the Chancellor of Germany, or..to use your example..the Queen was found to be covering up this sort of stuff.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I'm a catholic but there isn't much you say Bev H that I would disagree with. However, I do feel sorry for the vast majority of priests and others who do good work in many countries across the globe - they help people and make a difference to their communities, especially in poorer countries and are generally a force for good. It's a shame we dont ever get to hear about these people because of the berks in the vatican floating around in their rich robes coming out with 'rules' that belong to medieval times.

There were a lot of "good" Germans working for the Third Reich mate.

 

[philsussex]

Who has he murdered you deluded man?

He's the figurehead of a deeply corrupt organisation. That's enough surely.

 

[8ace]

They were originally Clone Troopers.

Did Jango Fett go to Newman then?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

FFS The Catholic lay community have an absolute obligation to challenge ALL of the TRUTHS I have outlined.

To pick and choose which elements of Benedicts edicts you happen to agree with is just moral cowardice.

If you don't challenge the EVILS he espouses then your "faith" is of no merit whatsever. The entire edifice needs tearing down and beginning again with total contrition.

Is it OK for this Hitler Jugend prelate who was involved root and branch with the cover ups of mass kiddy fiddling by vampire priests..the victims of which are condemned to a living hell of guilt and self loathing...that is if they don't commit the cardinal sin of topping themselves..to continue to spout his medieval drivel from Romeis a crime on an epic scale.

Imagine if the Chancellor of Germany, or..to use your example..the Queen was found to be covering up this sort of stuff.

So when it comes to it, your TRUTHS is down to one truth (the rest being opinion) - the issue of the abuse. Benedicts role in it is unclear and not completely proven, but I completely agree that there should be a full independent investigation, and if it incriminates the pope then so be it. However, I am not going to renege on my faith because of the acts (completely contrary to that faith) committed by a few.

And will you f***ing give over on the Nazi thing? Forget the Pope, I think you are showing a serious disprespect to Germans, not to mention those who were brave enough to stand up to the Nazis and faced their death as a result, by constantly suggesting that you are so f***ing great that you would have.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Did Jango Fett go to Newman then?

No, but Boba Fett used to get to school via Slave 1.