[Technology] Are some leftwingers unthinking automatons?

[The Clamp]

"They aren't saying it, but I know it's what they are thinking".

I can't take that view seriously, and actually that's what I was talking about in my original post. If you can find an example, I will fight it with you, as will most on the right. But if you can't find an example, maybe that should tell you something. If you still want to assume, despite no examples of it, that it's somehow not only there, but also all pervasive, then you are just ghost hunting, and the big problem I have with it is that this kind of mentality gets used to justify demonizing anyone on the right.

Person on the right: "Immigration numbers are too high, this is unsustainable".
Person on the left: "You won't say it but I know you are just a closet racist".

Person on the right: "Public spending and public debt are out of control and unsustainable".
Person on the left: "You won't say it but I know you just really hate poor people".

It was my original point in this thread.

Oh give over, that's not what I said at all. We obviously move in different circles because I have heard plenty of people express outdated views on these matters and proudly regard these views as part of their right leaning political views. Just because you clearly haven't heard such views doesn't mean they don't exist. I obviously frequent different locales to you.
I visit boarding schools, universities, I went to boarding school, have worked on building sites, drunk in exclusive dining clubs and working men's clubs, drunk in "closed" pubs in Belfast and socialised with the Johnson family in Surrey manor houses. I move from one spectrum to another and these views are openly expressed across a broad spectrum. The common denominator is a right leaning view of politics. Disagree all you like, I know what I've seen and heard and it does not tally with what you believe.

It might also behouth you to look at what politicians actually do as opposed to what they say. Boris Johnson's disastrous policies on rough sleeping and the Tory's cutting of women's services in the capital, for example.

 

[looney]

Yes...you're right.

But all this reminds me of the story of the master of sarcasm and wit, which I may relate on day. The punchline is '**** off, you red-nosed ****'.

I somtimes wonder if intellectual Germans in the late 20s and early 30s wrote clever rebuttals to the notions of Mr Hitler. Yes I know all about 'all failed discussions reducing to quoting the Nazis'. Anyway....I suspect it would have been better if a few chaps had jumped the ****, done him, and disposed of the body in the grinder in a pet food factory. Man played, game over.

In the meantime I salute your rigour.

ps [MENTION=277]looney[/MENTION], I can't, don't and won't read your posts so don't bother replying to mind. You 'tawt'.

You really are a slobbering mess aint yah?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I don't think the EDL and Antifa are great examples of the left or the right, they don't really tend to be much involved in the political discourse and I'm not sure that those on the outside of those groups really have much of an idea about what they believe or how they view things, myself included. My post is more referring to the more mainstream "moderate" contigent of both sides.

There was an article in either the Guardian or the Observer a couple of days ago (left wing rags both of them) arguing quite well that what was extreme 20 or 30 years ago is now mainstream. I think the EDL is more "accepted" - has more support at least - than bodies like the BNP or the equivalent had in the past. And mainstream attitudes to immigration, for example, have shifted significantly.

 

[dingodan]

Oh give over, that's not what I said at all. We obviously move in different circles because I have heard plenty of people express outdated views on these matters and proudly regard these views as part of their right leaning political views. Just because you clearly haven't heard such views doesn't mean they don't exist. I obviously frequent different locales to you.
I visit boarding schools, universities, I went to boarding school, have worked on building sites, drunk in exclusive dining clubs and working men's clubs, drunk in "closed" pubs in Belfast and socialised with the Johnson family in Surrey manor houses. I move from one spectrum to another and these views are openly expressed across a broad spectrum. The common denominator is a right leaning view of politics. Disagree all you like, I know what I've seen and heard and it does not tally with what you believe.

I didn't say they don't exist, I said they are not at all the mainstream, and I've never heard a remotely serious person on the right express them, or even seem to harbour them covertly.

"these views are openly expressed across a broad spectrum"

When you say that, what views exactly do you mean? That "women shouldn't have the same rights as men"?

 

[The Clamp]

I didn't say they don't exist, I said they are not at all the mainstream, and I've never heard a remotely serious person on the right express them, or even seem to harbour them covertly.

"these views are openly expressed across a broad spectrum"

When you say that, what views exactly do you mean? That "women shouldn't have the same rights as men"?

My God, you’re exhausting. Yes, sometimes those views are expressed explicitly but more often than not they are expressed in behaviours and actions. In off the cuff remarks and slights. In out of date phrases, in membership rules, in attitudes, rhetoric, traditions, tastes, staffing choices. And it’s not the odd comment, it’s rampant, it’s institutionalised and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Public expression may have been curtailed, privately it’s a very different story. And I am talking about racism, homophobia and sexism.
I own land in Cornwall and often go there out of season. Go for a drink on one of the local pubs in Penzance when it’s just the locals and no tourists around. You’d faint at the bar talk.
That’s my experience, yours is obviously very different.

 

[cunning fergus]

Actually it's a little different on the left because the left work with a collectivist mentality, where the group is more significant than the individual. I'm not saying that people on the right aren't susceptible to this kind of thing too, but having a collectivist mindset tends towards in-group out-group mentalities and group think. They also have a sense of moral superiority, which allows people to circumvent critical thinking, since there is no need (they know that they are right, and ideas counter to their own are immoral in motivation and practice, which puts them off even questioning the groups consensus - and if they do they are ostracised).

I agree though that these memes don't really serve any meaningful purpose, they don't encourage sincere debate, and they also play into a kind of group mentality.

It is definately the case though that the left need to take a good hard look at themselves, they aren't the defenders of decency and freedom that they think they are, quite the opposite.

Before we get to this analysis we should re-calibrate our assessment of left and right wing. The genesis of the left and the right is from the aftermath of the French Revolution and the people’s assembly. The radicals sat on the left and the establishment on the right.

On this basis, for example, Brexit is a left wing movement.

Until we apply this logic to political and social matters we just entrench an ignorant and childish analysis of what is morally right and wrong.

 

[BadFish]

Before we get to this analysis we should re-calibrate our assessment of left and right wing. The genesis of the left and the right is from the aftermath of the French Revolution and the people’s assembly. The radicals sat on the left and the establishment on the right.

On this basis, for example, Brexit is a left wing movement.

Until we apply this logic to political and social matters we just entrench an ignorant and childish analysis of what is morally right and wrong.

I am notI am sure that the right V left thing serves us particularly well. Sure there are ideas and concern which reside on each side of politics but it seems to me that most people agree with a variety of different positions from either side of politics. To assume somebody's beliefs or ideals based on an assumption of their political side is foolish. Perhaps more foolish is the idea that one can attribute behaviours to a person based on the side of the majority of their political beliefs.

This thread is decent evidence that people can see through it.

 

[dingodan]

My God, you’re exhausting. Yes, sometimes those views are expressed explicitly but more often than not they are expressed in behaviours and actions. In off the cuff remarks and slights. In out of date phrases, in membership rules, in attitudes, rhetoric, traditions, tastes, staffing choices. And it’s not the odd comment, it’s rampant, it’s institutionalised and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Public expression may have been curtailed, privately it’s a very different story. And I am talking about racism, homophobia and sexism.
That’s my experience, you’re is obviously very different.

Now I understand what you are saying. You see it everywhere. (Except of course in mainstream political discourse which is what we are talking about).

It's a little different from what you said though, and who know's what you really believe but aren't saying.

 

[Grombleton]

Maybe a stupid question, but why don’t the memes have ears?

I'm gonna guess that much like the poster of the memes, they can't hear anyone, so just carry on with whatever is in their head.

 

[dingodan]

Before we get to this analysis we should re-calibrate our assessment of left and right wing. The genesis of the left and the right is from the aftermath of the French Revolution and the people’s assembly. The radicals sat on the left and the establishment on the right.

On this basis, for example, Brexit is a left wing movement.

Until we apply this logic to political and social matters we just entrench an ignorant and childish analysis of what is morally right and wrong.

I agree that left and right are somewhat dodgy concepts, when I consider a political position I try to measure things in terms of liberty vs force rather than right vs left.

The most important thing, I think, is to assume that those you disagree with are well intentioned and sincere, because you cannot know what is in someone elses mind or heart, and I consider it a worse mistake to wrongly assume someone is a bad person, than it is to wrongly assume someone is a good person. Besides, judging the merits of a political argument or position doesn't require that you make a judgement about the character of the person espousing it. Usually the only benefit to be taken from judging someones character in this way is that if you can judge them as a bad person then you can dismiss or ignore their argument without having to actually take it on. If their argument is sound, you will never figure that out and maybe learn something, if their argument is unsound, then it goes unchallenged. Neither of those things are good.

My issue with the left, which I expressed in this thread, is that they are too ready to play the man and not the ball, they are too keen to make a bad person out of their opponent, rather than deal with the merits of an argument.

 

[The Clamp]

Now I understand what you are saying. You see it everywhere. (Except of course in mainstream political discourse which is what we are talking about).

It's a little different from what you said though, and who know's what you really believe but aren't saying.

No, mainstream political discourse is not what we were exclusively talking about, that’s where you have tried to steer it since my points didn’t fit your narrative. We were talking about whether these traits are prevalent in those who hold political views that lean to the right.
My experience is that they are and they are knitted into their right wing politics.
Of course no mainstream politician is going to express these views in a public arena but I have been around influential people, working class people, upper and lower classes, politicians that are absolutely mainstream and I can tell you they hold these views.
Your disbelief or attempts to steer the conversation to suit your preconceived notions change that fact not a jot.

What I believe but aren’t saying? Would you care to elaborate?

 

[dingodan]

No, mainstream political discourse is not what we were exclusively talking about, that’s where you have tried to steer it since my points didn’t fit your narrative. We were talking about whether these traits are prevalent in those who hold political views that lean to the right.
My experience is that they are and they are knitted into their right wing politics.
Of course no mainstream politician is going to express these views in a public arena but I have been around influential people, working class people, upper and lower classes, politicians that are absolutely mainstream and I can tell you they hold these views.
Your disbelief or at attempts to steer the conversation to suit your preconceived notions change that fact not a jot.

Well it's what I've been talking about, and it works both ways, for example it's politicians on the left who will say, openly and on TV, that their opponents are racist biggots, and it's the people they are talking about on the right, who you and I have now both agreed, do not express those kinds of views.

You've gradually brought it down to the level of builders on building sites and mens clubs, and fair enough, I don't hang around building sites or mens clubs but I wouldn't say the views expressed on a building site or in a mens club represent mainstream political discourse. Just like I might attend a leftist protest and hear that the media is a Jewish conspiracy, but I'm not about to claim that those views are therefore reflective of the mainstream political left either.

I never said this, I should have been clearer, I am actually talking about people engaged in public debate. That is afterall the only thing that gets bought into or not in the mainstream, and voted on (i.e. forms a basis for peoples political allegences). Although I still can't imagine you've really heard any serious politically minded person say that "women shouldn't have the same rights as men", but I guess I'll have to take your word for that.

 

[The Clamp]

Well it's what I've been talking about, and it works both ways, for example it's politicians on the left who will say, openly and on TV, that their opponents are racist biggots, and it's the people they are talking about on the right, who you and I have now both agreed, do not express those kinds of views.

You've gradually brought it down to the level of builders on building sites and mens clubs, and fair enough, I don't hang around building sites or mens clubs but I wouldn't say the views expressed on a building site or in a mens club represent mainstream political discourse. Just like I might attend a leftist protest and hear that the media is a Jewish conspiracy, but I'm not about to claim that those views are therefore reflective of the mainstream political left either.

I never said this, I should have been clearer, I am actually talking about people engaged in public debate. That is afterall the only thing that gets bought into or not in the mainstream, and voted on (i.e. forms a basis for peoples political allegences). Although I still can't imagine you've really heard any serious politically minded person say that "women shouldn't have the same rights as men", but I guess I'll have to take your word for that.

Where to start? Let’s see. We began by talking about certain attitudes held by people who subscribe to the politics of the right. That includes mainstream politicians and everyday folk. So that’s politicians and people of influence behind the closed doors of exclusive clubs and boardrooms and builders on site and in working men’s clubs. “The whole spectrum”.
Have I ever heard a politician say “women shouldn’t have the same rights as men”. No.
Have I seen examples of behaviour, club rules, attitudes and rhetoric that constitute the belief women shouldn’t have the same rights as men? Yes. Many times.

If you believe the only thing that means anything is what a mainstream politician says in public then your are more naive than I thought. Policies and political direction are decided behind the closed doors of the old boys network.
You would be shocked at the policies and laws that get privately shooed through that affect us all.
Business that affects us all is conducted behind the wood panelling of gentleman’s clubs. To you that may seem like a thing of the past. It’s not, I’ve witnessed it.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Brilliant

 

[dingodan]

Where to start? Let’s see. We began by talking about certain attitudes held by people who subscribe to the politics of the right. That includes mainstream politicians and everyday folk. So that’s politicians and people of influence behind the closed doors of exclusive clubs and boardrooms and builders on site and in working men’s clubs. “The whole spectrum”.
Have I ever heard a politician say “women shouldn’t have the same rights as men”. No.
Have I seen examples of behaviour, club rules, attitudes and rhetoric that constitute the belief women shouldn’t have the same rights as men? Yes. Many times.

If you believe the only thing that means anything is what a mainstream politician says in public then your are more naive than I thought. Policies and political direction are decided behind the closed doors of the old boys network.
You would be shocked at the policies and laws that get privately shooed through that affect us all.
Business that affects us all is conducted behind the wood panelling of gentleman’s clubs. To you that may seem like a thing of the past. It’s not, I’ve witnessed it.

The proof is in the pudding. Show me where women don't have the same rights as men, because by your logic that is policy and I just didn't notice it getting sneaked through by the secret cabal of sexist conservatives.

I can only deal with the world in front of me, and it's not a world where sexism or racism or any other forms of discrimination are tolerated on either side of the political spectrum. It's often suggested, but as far as I can tell only to demonize people who have done nothing to justify it, based on their (non-sexist, non-racist) political views, so that they can be dismissed out of hand as nasty bad people.

When I have used the term political discourse, rightly or wrongly, I have meant (and assumed it would be taken to mean) debate in the public sphere.

 

[The Clamp]

The proof is in the pudding. Show me where women don't have the same rights as men, because by your logic that is policy and I just didn't notice it getting sneaked through by the secret cabal of sexist conservatives.

I can only deal with the world in front of me, and it's not a world where sexism or racism or any other forms of discrimination are tolerated on either side of the political spectrum. It's often suggested, but as far as I can tell only to demonize people who have done nothing to justify it, based on their (non-sexist, non-racist) political views, so that they can be dismissed out of hand as nasty bad people.

When I have used the term political discourse, rightly or wrongly, I have meant (and assumed it would be taken to mean) debate in the public sphere.

Are you suggesting that institutional racism, sexism and homophobia don’t exist? Are you suggesting that there is not one politician who doesn’t harbour sexist, racist or homophobic views?

 

[BadFish]

Where to start? Let’s see. We began by talking about certain attitudes held by people who subscribe to the politics of the right. That includes mainstream politicians and everyday folk. So that’s politicians and people of influence behind the closed doors of exclusive clubs and boardrooms and builders on site and in working men’s clubs. “The whole spectrum”.
Have I ever heard a politician say “women shouldn’t have the same rights as men”. No.
Have I seen examples of behaviour, club rules, attitudes and rhetoric that constitute the belief women shouldn’t have the same rights as men? Yes. Many times.

If you believe the only thing that means anything is what a mainstream politician says in public then your are more naive than I thought. Policies and political direction are decided behind the closed doors of the old boys network.
You would be shocked at the policies and laws that get privately shooed through that affect us all.
Business that affects us all is conducted behind the wood panelling of gentleman’s clubs. To you that may seem like a thing of the past. It’s not, I’ve witnessed it.

I thought that one thing we all agreed on was that what politicians say in public should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[BadFish]

The proof is in the pudding. Show me where women don't have the same rights as men, because by your logic that is policy and I just didn't notice it getting sneaked through by the secret cabal of sexist conservatives.

I can only deal with the world in front of me, and it's not a world where sexism or racism or any other forms of discrimination are tolerated on either side of the political spectrum. It's often suggested, but as far as I can tell only to demonize people who have done nothing to justify it, based on their (non-sexist, non-racist) political views, so that they can be dismissed out of hand as nasty bad people.

When I have used the term political discourse, rightly or wrongly, I have meant (and assumed it would be taken to mean) debate in the public sphere.

You live in a world "where sexism or racism or any other forms of discrimination are tolerated on either side of the political spectrum" and politicians tell you what they really think?

I would love to come visit it sounds amazing.

What do all the spin doctors do?

 

[The Clamp]

I thought that one thing we all agreed on was that what politicians say in public should be taken with a pinch of salt.

You’d think so

 

[Chicken Run]

It is the very epitome of the mainstream right. There were several Conservative MPs eating there yesterday and it is still a centre for Conservative intrigue. Cabinet Ministers regularly turn up to be questioned by the members in private meetings. How is that not "mainstream right"?

How did you find yourself there?