[Technology] Are some leftwingers unthinking automatons?

[Weststander]

That is one of the most bonkers posts I’ve ever read on here. Total tinfoil hattery! Well done.

[MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] and [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] then went on to give anecdotal and other evidence that I was correct about left leaning teachers and lecturers. It's always been the way.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest - 14, 17, 21 year olds have an amazing ability to make up their own minds, despite the best efforts of those trying not to allow balanced debate and influence their young minds. I've worked with a whole load of new graduates this century; hardly any keen on the Labour Party.

I agree totally with your later post that the world in the main is becoming more right wing, frighteningly extreme at times. Trump, Putin, plus the rise of popular right wing minorities across Europe.

 

[El Presidente]

We are certainly becoming more intolerant. You mentioned institutions like Oxford University as something like a counter to a left-wing skew in universities. Take a look at which views/speakers/debates have been banned from Oxford. The intolerance isn't divided each way, it's one way, even at places like Oxford.

Where will we be after a few more generations of students who haven't been exposed to the full spectrum of ideas and viewpoints?

Whatever your political views a new generation who have only been exposed to one side of an argument and are unable to think critically isn't good for any of us.

Whilst I agree with you totally that exposure to a broad spectrum of ideas is counterproductive, give students credit, especially those at the elite end of higher education, that they get inspiration and views from sources outside of the lecture theatre too.

I often tell students that in an individual lecture there will be something that is incorrect, illogical or weak in terms of basis, and that if all they do is copy down the lecture notes and not challenge me they’re wasting time and money as life beyond uni is more than cut and paste.

 

[looney]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oruBxje1MG4&feature=youtu.be

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The loony must be awash in his own juice at how well this thread is going. Shame he won't be able to understand the longer words and the nuance in the better of the replies. My, how I love freedom of speach. ****. Racist. Nobber. Troll. Cockweasel.

 

[dingodan]

Whilst I agree with you totally that exposure to a broad spectrum of ideas is counterproductive, give students credit, especially those at the elite end of higher education, that they get inspiration and views from sources outside of the lecture theatre too.

I often tell students that in an individual lecture there will be something that is incorrect, illogical or weak in terms of basis, and that if all they do is copy down the lecture notes and not challenge me they’re wasting time and money as life beyond uni is more than cut and paste.

I completely agree, it's frankly extraordinary and very reassuring that there seems to be a massive bias in University faculties and yet the attitudes amongst students seems to be much more evenly split.

 

[clapham_gull]

Kent.

And you?

Well, I've been to three. The Old East London Polytechnic, Manchester and University of London.

I don't recall being brainwashed by "left wing ideology" at any. The degree in London was prime for it (in terms of subject) but I remember most the lecturers being very detached from what they were required to teach. If anything it was the students, but this was when Thatcher was on the throne.

There were 1 or 2 desperately right on lecturers in Manchester a, but they were more than outweighed by the commercially minded ones.

In London, the subject matter (science) wasn't really the sort of thing that was easy to politicise.

The majority of students simply don't get involved in politics. However, I understand as a student of lecturer you'd be pro EU, because of all the ties and opportunities to study part of your degree in the EU.

 

[dingodan]

It’s not a problem. I’m more concerned with the intolerant right wing who are holding all the power and don’t seem to be letting go anytime soon.

It is a problem.

This goes back to something I pointed out earlier. I am technically on the right. But if Universities were dominated by right wing lecturers and students were banning left wing views being expressed on campuses en mass, I would oppose that. But you, because those with the loudest voices share your world view, and because those being silenced do not, your response is, "not a problem".

Is freedom of expression on campus not a principle you agree with?

Wouldn't you prefer students to be able to formulate cogent arguments in opposition to what you consider to be bad ideas, rather than instead resorting to censorship and retreating to "safe spaces"?

Which do you think equips us better to deal with extreme or bad ideas?

 

[Weststander]

I completely agree, it's frankly extraordinary and very reassuring that there seems to be a massive bias in University faculties and yet the attitudes amongst students seems to be much more evenly split.

Chatting with some current year 11 and sixth form students and recent graduates, a recurring theme is that they don't like older characters in their life telling them what's right and what not to like. Interestingly, it can stimulate them to go the other way politically (legendary British awkwardness, possibly?). Perhaps already left leaning kids take to lecturers who espouse the same views, in the same way that people read a newspaper/website matching their thinking?

 

[Weststander]

Well, I've been to three. The Old East London Polytechnic, Manchester and University of London.

I don't recall being brainwashed by "left wing ideology" at any. The degree in London was prime for it (in terms of subject) but I remember most the lecturers being very detached from what they were required to teach. If anything it was the students, but this was when Thatcher was on the throne.

There were 1 or 2 desperately right on lecturers in Manchester a, but they were more than outweighed by the commercially minded ones.

In London, the subject matter (science) wasn't really the sort of thing that was easy to politicise.

The majority of students simply don't get involved in politics. However, I understand as a student of lecturer you'd be pro EU, because of all the ties and opportunities to study part of your degree in the EU.

"The majority of students simply don't get involved in politics.'

A very relevant point, and I would extend that to most young people.

For every angry 20 year old on a march in support of Tommy Robinson or donning a Yasser Arafat keffiyeh spitting hate at capitalism, there's a quiet huge majority interested in everything but politics.

 

[dingodan]

Chatting with some current year 11 and sixth form students and recent graduates, a recurring theme is that they don't like older characters in their life telling what's right and what not to like. Interestingly, it can stimulate them to go the other way politically (legendary British awkwardness, possibly?). Perhaps already left leaning kids take to lecturers who espouse the same views, in the same way that people read a newspaper/website matching their thinking?

Yeah, no doubt it's not nearly as simple as preach from the lecture hall lectern and successfully convince everyone in the room. Thank goodness.

The internet is a massive help these days too, there is plenty of material online so that people can inform themselves properly about all sides of a debate, without having to rely on having a particular viewpoint summarised for them by someone who already has a strong view either way.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yeah, no doubt it's not nearly as simple as preach from the lecture hall lectern and successfully convince everyone in the room. Thank goodness.

The internet is a massive help these days too, there is plenty of material online so that people can inform themselves properly about all sides of a debate, without having to rely on having a particular viewpoint summarised for them by someone who already has a strong view either way.

I know what you mean, but the internet is also the source of lies, propaganda, grooming etc where the less discerning or astute can get misled..... or far, far worse. And not necessarily just young people.

 

[portlock seagull]

"The majority of students simply don't get involved in politics.'

A very relevant point, and I would extend that to most young people.

For every angry 20 year old on a march in support of Tommy Robinson or donning a Yasser Arafat keffiyeh spitting hate at capitalism, there's a quiet huge majority interested in everything but politics.

My student years in a nutshell. Too busy raving and getting piste, nobody ever talked about politics or religion. In fact I can’t recall a single conversation about. There were societies and groups but just like student elections, no one gave a shit. In fact I remember one president being elected on something like 35 votes and the only person I knew who had voted said it was because she had nice hair. Not exactly a cauldron of militant social conscience were we? But I think that was more the norm

 

[Weststander]

My student years in a nutshell. Too busy raving and getting piste, nobody ever talked about politics or religion. In fact I can’t recall a single conversation about. There were societies and groups but just like student elections, no one gave a shit. In fact I remember one president being elected on something like 35 votes and the only person I knew who had voted said it was because she had nice hair. Not exactly a cauldron of militant social conscience were we? But I think that was more the norm

Similar experience for me. Some very angry Tory haters and a pretty popular Conservative Society.

But all tiny beer compared to the huge numbers at gigs, in the bars drinking incredibly cheap lager and snakebite, chasing the other sex, into sport. In between all of that, some studying just before exams!

 

[LlcoolJ]

Similar experience for me. Some very angry Tory haters and a pretty popular Conservative Society.

But all tiny beer compared to the huge numbers at gigs, in the bars drinking incredibly cheap lager and snakebite, chasing the other sex, into sport. In between all of that, some studying just before exams!

Exactly. But that doesn't fit with the stereotype.

 

[The Clamp]

It is a problem.

This goes back to something I pointed out earlier. I am technically on the right. But if Universities were dominated by right wing lecturers and students were banning left wing views being expressed on campuses en mass, I would oppose that. But you, because those with the loudest voices share your world view, and because those being silenced do not, your response is, "not a problem".

Is freedom of expression on campus not a principle you agree with?

Wouldn't you prefer students to be able to formulate cogent arguments in opposition to what you consider to be bad ideas, rather than instead resorting to censorship and retreating to "safe spaces"?

Which do you think equips us better to deal with extreme or bad ideas?

I think you’re completely wrong about everything in that post.

 

[El Presidente]

I completely agree, it's frankly extraordinary and very reassuring that there seems to be a massive bias in University faculties and yet the attitudes amongst students seems to be much more evenly split.

Having taught ar quite a few unis I wouldn’t agree that there’s a massive bias towards the left. Institutionally, apart from Buckingham, I’ve only experienced a desire to research rather than indoctrinate.

They are liberal in nature in the sense that there is a belief in education for all, an opposition to the present level of tuition fees on the grounds that it discourages participation for some from less wealthy backgrounds, but lecturers, like most students, tend to be apolitical in terms of their day to day focus. My aim usually is to get the phrase ‘a small club such as Crystal Palace’ into media interviews, but I don’t believe that’s inherently socialist.

There may be fewer right leaning staff in terms of those who are committed to the capitalist model simply because as a public sector institution the pay is crap and remuneration is set on a national scale, which by definition isn’t going to appeal to anyone who wants to maximise their wealth.

Whilst I don’t teach at school I do work for a charity called Young Enterprise, that aims to show kids from pre-school to HE level about commerce, entrepreneurship and life skills that are valued, rather than the depressing diktats of political ping pong that come from party conference. If you can give up a few days or half days give it a go, it’s a great cause and you can see light bulbs being switched on in young people, which for me is the reason I work in and believe in the power of education.

Politics courses from what I can see are more about the history of an ideology and the rationale behind a particular set of views rather than indoctrination. There’s no way that PPE at Oxford is attempting to turn young people into placard waving Corbynistas.

The main staff union is left leaning, but most unions are, and there are alternatives (I transferred union membership as I thought the leadership of the main one failed the competence threshold, but that’s something IMO where the main political parties have failed too).

I don’t think this thread is going the way Looney intended.




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[BLOCK F]

You'll find that attitude is not spoken out loud much in public forums these days but go behind the closed doors of many institutions and you'll experience it aplenty. Head to the VIth form Common Room in any British boarding school if you are tempted to think these attitudes are dying out too. Or any pub on a Friday night up North or on a London council estate community pub.

Many British boarding schools are now co-ed and I am sure that in the VIth form common room, there will be no such attitudes concerning equality for women being expressed by the boys.
My old boarding school has been co-ed for some time and all the better for it.
I think your views are rather out of touch with life today.