Are labour voters the worst losers in the history of the world?

[daveinprague]

That sentence, just sums it all up perfectly. Also the actions of some of those (i.e daubing political slogans on memorials to WWII heroes) that cannot accept the democratic will of the British people last week, show this.

I read something about this paint issue. A couple reported seeing the perpetrator who committed this crap, and later again with his friends. Who were policemen. I dont know whether that is true or not, but this stuff was said about the 'lefties' with the earlier war memorial desecrations, and that turned out to be far-right people.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This possibly shows how difficult things would be under PR. There would be months of wrangling and shady deal-making behind the scenes given the nature of UK politics ('we'll support your policy if.......' etc) to either form an effective coalition. Cameron would be PM (as the tories would have the most seats) but policy after policy would likely to be derailed by the others I reckon, meaning passing anything would become impossible.

And yet it works very well in, dare I say it, Germany .... bugger :faceplam:

 

[Bold Seagull]

What a load of bollocks. If true PR had been used then the MP split would be :

Tories = 240 MPs
Labour = 195
UKIP = 84
Lib Dems = 52
SNP = 32
Green = 26

That would only be PR in the situation of the entire UK being one single constituency with a party voting list. It wouldn't be the split of PR through a district or region based system that still connects candidates to their locality.

 

[daveinprague]

This possibly shows how difficult things would be under PR. There would be months of wrangling and shady deal-making behind the scenes given the nature of UK politics ('we'll support your policy if.......' etc) to either form an effective coalition. Cameron would be PM (as the tories would have the most seats) but policy after policy would likely to be derailed by the others I reckon, meaning passing anything would become impossible.

Exactly. The UKIP supporters are crying that they would have 85 seats under PR, neatly forgetting EVERYBODY else would still have more than enough to cancel out anything they want to do.
I see Carswell wont endorse Farage as well today. The ONE MP they have not endorsing the leader, and possibly returning to the Tories? haha Let the UKIP antics begin.

 

[mikeyjh]

Maybe it's not a question of being bitter, but about real concern of what might now happen.

I am on the management committee of the main benefits advice centre in Southampton. We have already felt it necessary to send our advisers for suicide awareness training. There are going to be a further £12bn benefit cuts. Go figure.
Most Tory MPs seem to think that people only use food-banks because they "are there". Anyone who has anything to do with them knows that people who go to them have to be referred to them and that, to put it mildly, they would rather not have to. People are desperate and it is going to get worse.
We have all seen the horror stories about benefits tribunals ruling people fit for work when they are clearly not. These are true! I know that from personal experiences of friends and neighbours.
I have a wife who works in education who is furious about the £billions going to the ideological black hole of Free Schools, many of which are failing, where the government has no control of them when they are set up, where there seems to be no consideration of whether they are needed where they are proposed, when her institution, which is doing a superb job in the ethnically diverse city of Southampton, has a constant battle and struggle for survival, and a neighbouring college just outside the City is being allowed to go under.
I have a daughter who is a doctor, training to be a GP in Leicestershire, and a brother-in-law who is a recently retired consultant surgeon, both confirming the fears about the NHS. Maybe they are wrong (I don't think they are) but they are seriously worried.
I have a daughter working in local government in South Wales, I know plenty of people working in local government in Southampton, Portsmouth, Eastleigh, Hampshire County Council who are constantly having to do more with less..... And it is people's lives, wellbeing and safety they are playing with.

It's not about being bitter. It's about real fear for the future.

While a simple 'thumbs up' would probably suffice, this post is worth repeating. It's not about being bitter, it's genuine sorrow and worry about the future.

 

[daveinprague]

And yet it works very well in, dare I say it, Germany .... bugger :faceplam:

Yeah, the seats of ALL the far right, and center right parties amount to less than 50 seats, compared to Merkels Christian Democrats at 250 odd. Yes, it works well in Germany as well.

 

[Bold Seagull]

And yet it works very well in, dare I say it, Germany .... bugger :faceplam:

Theirs' is a Mixed Member Proportional Representation. You have 2 votes, one for your constituency MP, one for a party. The constituency member is still chosen under FPTP. Each party then has a closed list (a region list) of candidates or list MP's that make up the rest of parliament and give the proportional representation.

 

[janee]

If you are going to give as fact that austerity measures cause death perhaps you could share some figures.

you give two examples,people with cancer forced to work and people with mental health issues being forced to consider suicide,both due to austerity measures.

Whilst cancer is a truly awful disease i do know people who have it and still work full time and live a normal everyday life,my mother carried on working usually 70 or 80 hours a week with cancer until it beat her. Of course there are varying degrees of cancer affecting people in various ways.

However since you give it as a fact. How many people with cancer have died from having their benefits stripped and having to go back to work? What are your views on oral chemotherapy,are people on this incapacitated enough to stop them,across the board from being able to work or are some of them capable of full time work?
And how many people with mental health issues have committed suicide because of austerity cuts.

I await your figures,you must have them as you would be unable to make such sweeping statements otherwise, unless of course you have just bought into the party line that the Tories are the nasty people.......A line on politics and thinking that many Labour supporters are finally admitting cost them votes.

I know 2 people who were friends who spent their last few weeks battling the DWP over benefits after being found fit for work. I work for a housing association and know one tenant who killed himself after being sanctioned by the DWP for missing an appointment due to his schizophrenia.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-people-and-there-may-be-60-more-9942735.html

I have also pasted a link showing an article that backs this up.

I'm sure you'll find something wrong with it while you continue to put your fingers in your ears while loudly shouting.

Just don't get ill or sick for the next 5 years.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Sadly print media has been a right wing propaganda tool in these isles for decades, at least the phone hacking scandal derailed yet more concentration of media ownership, the Tories were gutted though

And the Mirror and Guardian for the left....?

 

[Triggaaar]

It's not about being bitter. It's about real fear for the future.

And people fear what would happen if we always run a deficit, until we're bankrupt.

It's depressing. I mean, how can one man donate over a million quid to one party, then use his 'news'paper to tell us all to vote for that party?

Labour were in power for 13 years, with a huge majority, thanks to support from Murdoch. Why didn't Labour do something to stop his control then? And is it ok for Alan Sugar to donate £1m ish to the Labour party? Sorry, I mean Lord Sugar.

 

[alfredmizen]

I know 2 people who were friends who spent their last few weeks battling the DWP over benefits after being found fit for work. I work for a housing association and know one tenant who killed himself after being sanctioned by the DWP for missing an appointment due to his schizophrenia.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-people-and-there-may-be-60-more-9942735.html

I have also pasted a link showing an article that backs this up.

I'm sure you'll find something wrong with it while you continue to put your fingers in your ears while loudly shouting.

Just don't get ill or sick for the next 5 years.

Nothing to do with his schizophrenia then ? Schizophrenic kills himself so it MUST be down to the nasty Tories

 

[BigGully]

Maybe it's not a question of being bitter, but about real concern of what might now happen.

I am on the management committee of the main benefits advice centre in Southampton. We have already felt it necessary to send our advisers for suicide awareness training. There are going to be a further £12bn benefit cuts. Go figure.
Most Tory MPs seem to think that people only use food-banks because they "are there". Anyone who has anything to do with them knows that people who go to them have to be referred to them and that, to put it mildly, they would rather not have to. People are desperate and it is going to get worse.
We have all seen the horror stories about benefits tribunals ruling people fit for work when they are clearly not. These are true! I know that from personal experiences of friends and neighbours.
I have a wife who works in education who is furious about the £billions going to the ideological black hole of Free Schools, many of which are failing, where the government has no control of them when they are set up, where there seems to be no consideration of whether they are needed where they are proposed, when her institution, which is doing a superb job in the ethnically diverse city of Southampton, has a constant battle and struggle for survival, and a neighbouring college just outside the City is being allowed to go under.
I have a daughter who is a doctor, training to be a GP in Leicestershire, and a brother-in-law who is a recently retired consultant surgeon, both confirming the fears about the NHS. Maybe they are wrong (I don't think they are) but they are seriously worried.
I have a daughter working in local government in South Wales, I know plenty of people working in local government in Southampton, Portsmouth, Eastleigh, Hampshire County Council who are constantly having to do more with less..... And it is people's lives, wellbeing and safety they are playing with.

It's not about being bitter. It's about real fear for the future.

What an utterly depressing interpretation of your families otherwise successful careers, driven no doubt by your socialist world view.

There are challenges of course for everyone its the inevitable dynamic of a free and aspirational country, but your family could do with a bit of a spring in their step, be careful not to look like a bunch of privileged whingers ........

 

[Bold Seagull]

And people fear what would happen if we always run a deficit, until we're bankrupt.

DiS was just explaining that being on the losing side isn't about being bitter. Of course people had opposite fears, hence the government was reelected. That is pretty much stating the obvious.

Labour were in power for 13 years, with a huge majority, thanks to support from Murdoch. Why didn't Labour do something to stop his control then? And is it ok for Alan Sugar to donate £1m ish to the Labour party? Sorry, I mean Lord Sugar.

Is the issue right or wrong in your opinion? Both main political parties indulging in similar activities. Very easy to answer every political point in reference to partisanship.

 

[drew]

What an utterly depressing interpretation of your families otherwise successful careers, driven no doubt by your socialist world view.

There are challenges of course for everyone its the inevitable dynamic of a free and aspirational country, but your family could do with a bit of a spring in their step, be careful not to look like a bunch of privileged whingers ........

Is that a serious post?

 

[Triggaaar]

DiS was just explaining that being on the losing side isn't about being bitter. Of course people had opposite fears, hence the government was reelected. That is pretty much stating the obvious.

Unfortunately the obvious needs stating. Many people will just be disappointed with the government that's been elected, and many will fear what's going to happen. They are not being bitter. But there are also plenty who are just bitter, and can't accept that others don't share their opinions.

Is the issue right or wrong in your opinion?

I think the press are too powerful, but then I haven't worked on a solution.

 

[BigGully]

Is that a serious post?

No no its not ...........

 

[Diego Napier]

Maybe it's not a question of being bitter, but about real concern of what might now happen.

I am on the management committee of the main benefits advice centre in Southampton. We have already felt it necessary to send our advisers for suicide awareness training. There are going to be a further £12bn benefit cuts. Go figure.
Most Tory MPs seem to think that people only use food-banks because they "are there". Anyone who has anything to do with them knows that people who go to them have to be referred to them and that, to put it mildly, they would rather not have to. People are desperate and it is going to get worse.
We have all seen the horror stories about benefits tribunals ruling people fit for work when they are clearly not. These are true! I know that from personal experiences of friends and neighbours.
I have a wife who works in education who is furious about the £billions going to the ideological black hole of Free Schools, many of which are failing, where the government has no control of them when they are set up, where there seems to be no consideration of whether they are needed where they are proposed, when her institution, which is doing a superb job in the ethnically diverse city of Southampton, has a constant battle and struggle for survival, and a neighbouring college just outside the City is being allowed to go under.
I have a daughter who is a doctor, training to be a GP in Leicestershire, and a brother-in-law who is a recently retired consultant surgeon, both confirming the fears about the NHS. Maybe they are wrong (I don't think they are) but they are seriously worried.
I have a daughter working in local government in South Wales, I know plenty of people working in local government in Southampton, Portsmouth, Eastleigh, Hampshire County Council who are constantly having to do more with less..... And it is people's lives, wellbeing and safety they are playing with.

It's not about being bitter. It's about real fear for the future.

Thank you for this David, it provides a considered insight into the plight and potential future of our have nots.

It's easy to get caught up in tribal warfare about politics on a website such as this, totally divorced from reality, much in the same way that herd instinct and anger can take control at football matches. It often comes down to who can score a point regardless of tactics, veracity, fairness and the true merits of each team.

Some may think the social evils targetted by the Attlee government in 1945 (Want (poverty), Disease (bad health), Squalor (bad housing), Ignorance (poor education), Idleness (unemployment)) are no longer relevant. Your post indicates otherwise.

It is easier and simpler to ignore the plight of the underprivileged in our country (much in the same way as we can switch channels or go and make a cup of tea when we see starving children on charity adverts on the tv) and just think about ourselves.

However "good" or "bad", incompetent or successful Tory or Labour administrations might have been, one has always been rooted in feudalism and intent on retaining entrenched wealth and the other is still committed to relevant social change.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

The first thread....Not long to go now folks,clear the voting booths for Ed and Balls to do their victory dance...Splattered through the 500 odd pages...themes of the 'Nasty Tories' yet you lost,now you're bitter about the Tory voters.
The voting system is not perfect...but we had a referendum and again things stayed Status Quo,so we are are stuck with it for now...even if the boundaries drawn up at present give Labour a 20 seat advantage
Lib Dems lost,not for getting into a coalition as they spouted...they would've gone with anybody to stay in power. They lost because their leader told everybody that they would abolish tuition fees,then trebled them, he would back the Tories on boundary changes if they backed his AV referendum, they got the referendum then reneged on his promise. I noted that Paddy Ashdown said the exit poll was wrong...if it was anywhere near right he'd eat his hat...has he ? or just another promise broken.
The desperation of the SNP was shown when a respected Labour politician,with years of experience, was voted out for a drunken 20 year old foul mouth. With Nicola Sturgeons vow to block a legimate Government and to cause disruption in the House of Commons...this for a person who did not receive a single vote in England yet wants to take away our defence by scrapping Trident...incidently a move that would put thousands of Scots on the dole and drawing benefits...great way to run the economy.
Labour failed on the handling of the economy,no matter what they say about an economic down turn,they spent and borrowed during the good times,solds some of our gold reserves,raided pension funds and had nothing left when the bad times came...poor judgement.
During the campaign...well the Ed stone...I will put this in the garden of No 10 to remind me of the pledges...er Ed...You haven't been voted in yet!
Now even his own party and Brother have said he got it wrong.
Wether you liked the result or not...it's what you got by a general election...you cannot change it now till 5 years time.

 

[BigGully]

Thank you for this David, it provides a considered insight into the plight and potential future of our have nots.

Why do you have to be so vague, 'have nots', 'vulnerable' and 'poverty' .....

Its like mediums, that say 'I am getting something, does the letter 'A' mean anything', jeeeez just give me a name if you really can speak to the afterlife .....

1 not working, single, living in a 1 bedroom apartment
Couple, not working, living in a 1 bedroom apartment
Couple, one child, not working living in a two bedroom apartment
Couple two children, not working, living in a two bedroom apartment
and so on, give me the figures, what do they receive, include Free School meals, prescriptions, dental care, pupil premium etc ??

Then we might have a serious debate on what seems reasonable and what does not, its all here http://www.entitledto.co.uk/benefits-calculator/startcalc.aspx?e2dwp=y

Then we can have an honest debate, not vague political cliches.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

While a simple 'thumbs up' would probably suffice, this post is worth repeating. It's not about being bitter, it's genuine sorrow and worry about the future.

Thanks. It is because people care, and care desperately, about what they are doing.