[Travel] Appealing a rail penalty fare

[beorhthelm]

Do you really need me to explain how an aeroplane differs from a train? OK..I’ll start with basics.

A train runs on a track. The track was built by a nationalised railway (usually) but this was sold for pence in the pound to some rich people who now run a train on it.

Because the track is VERY expensive to build and requires annoying fripperies like planning permission and compulsory land purchases to erec (how many billions is HS2 running to just now?) it is prohibitively expensive for competitors to challenge the incumbents by building and running cheaper trains...hey presto...the cost to use it is spiralling because the train operators have a captive audience.

An aeroplane is different. You don’t need a hugely expensive “sky track”to get from A to B so, many providers have to do this thing called “compete” often with cost being a Key differentiator therefore costs are lower for passengers. Once you see this dynamic you’ll understand. Trains are cleaner than planes, they run into city centres and are convenient. Knowing this the operators have chosen to anally rape their passengers because...they can.

Other nations run these services as a key infrastructure requirement. They subsidise the fares and encourage passengers out of the cars which are poisoning the environment and clogging our roads.

The same government that sold off this vital plank of the economy to profiteers and chancers is now busily punishing the car drivers,it forced off the trains in the first place, with levies on fuel, congestion paid carriageways and vehicle tax to try and force the very citizens it robbed of the family jewels to pay for that folly over and over again. We should be rewarding rail users for choosing this service over cars and planes. Not screwing them.

You have not been charged for this summary.

well done for explaining its the infrastructure, not privatisation, that cause the costs to be high.

and for highlighting the subsidies required to run rail. as a rail commuter im quite happy you want to subsidise my travel to work, not really fair on all those that dont live/work close to rail, there we are.

 

[DavePage]

where is VAR when you want a defined penalty decision?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

well done for explaining its the infrastructure, not privatisation, that cause the costs to be high.

and for highlighting the subsidies required to run rail. as a rail commuter im quite happy you want to subsidise my travel to work, not really fair on all those that dont live/work close to rail, there we are.

I would consider subsidising you to use rail as an act of good citizenship on my part.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

well done for explaining its the infrastructure, not privatisation, that cause the costs to be high.

and for highlighting the subsidies required to run rail. as a rail commuter im quite happy you want to subsidise my travel to work, not really fair on all those that dont live/work close to rail, there we are.

I think I’m casting my pearls before swine on this one. If anyone seriously thinks that running national infrastructure for profit rather than need is a good idea...despite the total shambles privatisation has brought to rail in the UK...then I have to suspect political idealism over common sense.

Oh..and before we have the “I remember how shit British Rail was” please amend it to “I remember how shit a woefully underfunded and over unionised British Rail was” as that was the situation in those days.

Thatcher did some very good work in bringing down the unions which were strangling the country. She used that to justify the sale of BR and set our country on a disastrous course where vital services are seen as revenue generators.

It’s possible for a leader to distinguish themselves in one way and soil their legacy in another. Selling BR proves that.

 

[Creaky]

Do you really need me to explain how an aeroplane differs from a train? OK..I’ll start with basics.

A train runs on a track. The track was built by a nationalised railway (usually) but this was sold for pence in the pound to some rich people who now run a train on it.

Because the track is VERY expensive to build and requires annoying fripperies like planning permission and compulsory land purchases to erec (how many billions is HS2 running to just now?) it is prohibitively expensive for competitors to challenge the incumbents by building and running cheaper trains...hey presto...the cost to use it is spiralling because the train operators have a captive audience.

An aeroplane is different. You don’t need a hugely expensive “sky track”to get from A to B so, many providers have to do this thing called “compete” often with cost being a Key differentiator therefore costs are lower for passengers. Once you see this dynamic you’ll understand. Trains are cleaner than planes, they run into city centres and are convenient. Knowing this the operators have chosen to anally rape their passengers because...they can.

Other nations run these services as a key infrastructure requirement. They subsidise the fares and encourage passengers out of the cars which are poisoning the environment and clogging our roads.

The same government that sold off this vital plank of the economy to profiteers and chancers is now busily punishing the car drivers,it forced off the trains in the first place, with levies on fuel, congestion paid carriageways and vehicle tax to try and force the very citizens it robbed of the family jewels to pay for that folly over and over again. We should be rewarding rail users for choosing this service over cars and planes. Not screwing them.

You have not been charged for this summary.

Wasn’t most of the railway system actually built by private companies with much of it being sold off after it was nationalised?

Isn’t Network Rail who now own the railway infrastructure a publicly owned company with no private shareholders?

 

[Tokyohands]

It was probably 20 years ago and i'm not sure what the rules are now but I got stung at Brighton Station having got on at Aldrington not being able to buy a ticket there. The guy at the gate at Brighton refused to sell me a ticket and gave me a penalty fare, which I accepted but then bought a ticket from the machine as soon as I got past him. I then got a solicitor to write a letter to send with the ticket and they dropped it.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Funnily enough, this situation has just been on tv, in Dom on the spot.
This is right. A ticket must be bought before you get on the train.

How do you go on when the ticket machine isn't working?

The Portslade ticket machines are often broken. They often also close the ticket office. I once had a huge row with an inspector who accussed me of being a lair when I couldn't get a ticket. He somewhat piped down when I showed him photos of both machines and the closed sign on the ticket office ... all with a copy of that days Metro paper in the image. The problem is that the railways are run by fools - Grayling, Horton, Doll - and staffed by entitled lazy @rseholes.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think I’m casting my pearls before swine on this one....

rather wandered away from the point about attributing the cost to privatisation. it would cost the same in full public ownership, just may have a larger subsidy to shelter the public? debateable. the few % profit operators make (if they make any) is not the cause of high costs and may be reducing over all costs (needs more input if that is the case or not). as noted, the rail infrastructure has been nationalised for 15 years. rail is a natural monopoly, doesnt benefit from competition much so isnt a great candidate for private ownership. but at the same time public ownership isnt a magic wand that will fix everything. the core problems of requirement of shed loads of constant investment, removal of unions and high labour costs have been noted.

 

[drew]

Wasn’t most of the railway system actually built by private companies with much of it being sold off after it was nationalised?

Isn’t Network Rail who now own the railway infrastructure a publicly owned company with no private shareholders?

You are correct. In the 1800s, private companies built the railways, eg London and Brighton Railway which opened the mainline in 1841.

As for the infrastructure, when it was privatised, weren't the lines and stations sold off as Railtrack which then went bust and a lot of rich people lost a lot of money when it was returned to public ownership as Network Rail?

 

[Durlston]

It was probably 20 years ago and i'm not sure what the rules are now but I got stung at Brighton Station having got on at Aldrington not being able to buy a ticket there. The guy at the gate at Brighton refused to sell me a ticket and gave me a penalty fare, which I accepted but then bought a ticket from the machine as soon as I got past him. I then got a solicitor to write a letter to send with the ticket and they dropped it.

Wouldn't hiring a solicitor cost more than the fine or are you a man of principle that prefers money going to the nicer guys and girls?

 

[dazzer6666]

I've travelled to London loads of times without a ticket - I also buy ad-hoc as I don't have a regular travel pattern - I get a train at 6am but the ticket office at my station doesn't open until 6.10am (at best - the guy ARRIVES at 6.10am but the faffs around for 30 mins with his blind down) and the ticket machine is often out of order. Never, ever had a problem getting a ticket (whether weekly or daily) on arrival at London Bridge. Very rare to see a ticket inspector on the train but when this has happened I've just said the office was shut and machine wasn't working and he's sold me a ticket.

There used to be the old 'permit to travel' machines that you put a quid into to show your intention to get a ticket when the office was shut but don't see those any more

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

rather wandered away from the point about attributing the cost to privatisation. it would cost the same in full public ownership, just may have a larger subsidy to shelter the public? debateable. the few % profit operators make (if they make any) is not the cause of high costs and may be reducing over all costs (needs more input if that is the case or not). as noted, the rail infrastructure has been nationalised for 15 years. rail is a natural monopoly, doesnt benefit from competition much so isnt a great candidate for private ownership. but at the same time public ownership isnt a magic wand that will fix everything. the core problems of requirement of shed loads of constant investment, removal of unions and high labour costs have been noted.

I’m not against private ownership of many services. I am against private ownership of ESSENTIAL especially where the barriers to entry are so massively high that no one can compete and thereby contain costs to users.

Oddly this privatisation has left us with the worst of all worlds. The costs are extremely high for passengers and the incentives to maintain the rolling stock and improving customer experience have declined.weve ended up with lazy staff and greedy shareholders...never a good mix.

Anyone who thinks it’s sensible that flying around Britain is so much cheaper than training it clearly hasn’t grasped this...you have and I apologise for my waspish earlier comments.

 

[Notters]

There used to be the old 'permit to travel' machines that you put a quid into to show your intention to get a ticket when the office was shut but don't see those any more

They do those here but you have to get them from the same ticket machine.

 

[Justice]

There is CCTV on trains and they have the power to arrest you. I'm sure [MENTION=14168]Durlston[/MENTION] didn't want anymore grief at the time

As far as I’m aware not carrying ID is not an offence.

 

[pearl]

As far as I’m aware not carrying ID is not an offence.

in my case I had a ticket for part of the journey. On the ticket was a reserved seat number. I was traceable.

I'm guessing you drive everywhere

 

[Justice]

Ok

in my case I had a ticket for part of the journey. On the ticket was a reserved seat number. I was traceable.

I'm guessing you drive everywhere

I get the train occasionally, got pulled once by the little plain clothes hitler as didn’t have time to get ticket, I fed him a load of bollocks used an old address I used to live at back in the day and called my self John Connor he obviously wasn’t into terminator. I think I had to pay double the fair can’t really remember. Instead of employing undercover operatives put more ticket machines in stations probably doesn’t suit the regime though.

 

[pearl]

OkI get the train occasionally, got pulled once by the little plain clothes hitler as didn’t have time to get ticket, I fed him a load of bollocks used an old address I used to live at back in the day and called my self John Connor he obviously wasn’t into terminator. I think I had to pay double the fair can’t really remember. Instead of employing undercover operatives put more ticket machines in stations probably doesn’t suit the regime though.

their enthusiasm makes me suspect they are on commission!

 

[rippleman]

Get there earlier or buy in advance

So how much time do you leave?

Of the three Ticket Office windows at Worthing there is rarely more than one open. Then you end up in a queue because the operative behind the counter thinks they are working for Tourist Information and is engaged in a lengthy discussion with somebody too lazy and / or stupid to go on the National Railways journey planner and is investigating all the routes / prices to travel to <insert somewhere "up north" here> in 6 weeks time. The counter operative shouldn't be doing that when there is a queue.

Time was that the staff on the barrier would happily sell you a ticket if you were in a rush and there was a queue at Tourist Information. Now they blatantly refuse.

Recently saw a woman at Portslade with a pram and three young kids (who had already had to push the pram up the steps as there is no ramp) be told to go back across the level crossing to the north side of the station to buy a ticket because the card only machine on the south side was out of order again. Would the guy on the barrier sell her a ticket? Would he ****.

And you wonder why the railways get so much shit?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Wasn’t most of the railway system actually built by private companies with much of it being sold off after it was nationalised?

Isn’t Network Rail who now own the railway infrastructure a publicly owned company with no private shareholders?

Correct. The initial investment was private because that way the owner had a guaranteed return on investment. The country decided, when prices got exhorbitant, that the need to feed commuters into cities like London and Liverpool was now an essential part of UK plc, infra-structurally, they bought these lines into public ownership to protect those commuters and increase movement potential. The sellers were given a good price and surrendered their monopoly.

Thatchers crime was to reverse that and place those services back in private hands but, stupidly, maintaining responsibility for the tracks (the non revenue generating element) in public hands. This is great for the train operators who get paid directly for a seat, or a corridor place, by the passengers but shithouse for the taxpayers who get to maintain rail tracks for the profiteers.

If anyone thinks that the sell off was a great move for the UK needs to look at Australia where the public owns both elements and receives a top draw service for the country and the users.

 

[father_and_son]

The Portslade ticket machines are often broken. They often also close the ticket office. I once had a huge row with an inspector who accussed me of being a lair when I couldn't get a ticket. He somewhat piped down when I showed him photos of both machines and the closed sign on the ticket office ... all with a copy of that days Metro paper in the image. The problem is that the railways are run by fools - Grayling, Horton, Doll - and staffed by entitled lazy @rseholes.

The staff at the London Bridge "excess fares" window are WELL AWARE of how sh*t portslade is. Have had to buy tickets from there regularly and they know as soon as a queue starts to form a Portslade train has arrived - seems to be an in-joke for them!