another nail in the tory coffin

[A mex eyecan]

Have you been living under a stone for the last five years? Seriously you think the tories give a shit about the poor or disabled?

http://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/cs-true-cost-austerity-inequality-uk-120913-en.pdf

not sure who you are asking , perhaps you can say

 

[mikeyjh]

how sad a life view that is . .

enlighten me what do you do, what do you think a decent hourly rate is

It's not important what I do, but I think something north of £15k would be a start down here

 

[A mex eyecan]

It's not important what I do, but I think something north of £15k would be a start down here

so then does that make 17k poor? you make comments about my business model, when you don't know what market place we are in, what that market place stands as an acceptable margin, you make comments about acceptable decent wages when you have not bothered to ask what the job roles are, and feel quite at Liberty to do so. yet you shy away from answering a simple question about what line of work you are in ..

some of us try to ascertain facts before we make critical statements about businesses, rates of pay etc etc ...

 

[Tarpon]

The local Living Wage is just under £7.50 an hour I think. That's £14.4k gross pa based on 37 hour week.

 

[A mex eyecan]

The local Living Wage is just under £7.50 an hour I think. That's £14.4k gross pa based on 37 hour week.

exactly,
so according to mikejh17k which is roughly 20 percent above that isn't a decent wage .....

 

[Tarpon]

exactly,
so according to mikejh17k which is roughly 20 percent above that isn't a decent wage .....

Well the LW is sometimes considered as the bare minimum required to meet basic needs which is, arguably, different from decent...

 

[A mex eyecan]

Well the LW is sometimes considered as the bare minimum required to meet basic needs which is, arguably, different from decent...

and I don't disagree with you on this, but it also depends on what the job role is ..
however assumptions were made by mikeyjh that I was still paying my people 17k, in fact the lowest person on my payroll is 18k their role is unskilled etc, the market norm for similar roles is 14,500. the next wage band is 19,250, again unskilled but slightly more demanding, we even employ staff at 25k plus, all of which are way above what our competitors pay for the same roles.
yes I could without doubt bring in staff who would do the job for less and make the company and ultimately me more profit and cash.
Mikeyjh doubts any employer works with others interests at heart, suggests anyone unable to pay decent wages should not exist, suggests that. I may be in the wrong market etc. All this without even asking what it is we do, what we currently pay or any other such fact that determines viability of business.
furthermore won't answer a question as to what line of work is, but then goes on to show how little grasp he has in other people's posts when he says 17k isn't decent, but then says 15k would be a start ...

 

[Tarpon]

and I don't disagree with you on this, but it also depends on what the job role is ..
however assumptions were made by mikeyjh that I was still paying my people 17k, in fact the lowest person on my payroll is 18k their role is unskilled etc, the market norm for similar roles is 14,500. the next wage band is 19,250, again unskilled but slightly more demanding, we even employ staff at 25k plus, all of which are way above what our competitors pay for the same roles.
yes I could without doubt bring in staff who would do the job for less and make the company and ultimately me more profit and cash.
Mikeyjh doubts any employer works with others interests at heart, suggests anyone unable to pay decent wages should not exist, suggests that. I may be in the wrong market etc. All this without even asking what it is we do, what we currently pay or any other such fact that determines viability of business.
furthermore won't answer a question as to what line of work is, but then goes on to show how little grasp he has in other people's posts when he says 17k isn't decent, but then says 15k would be a start ...

Yeah but doesn't the fact that the market rate is so much lower than what you pay demonstrate that you're one of the (laudable) exceptions to the rule?

 

[A mex eyecan]

Yeah but doesn't the fact that the market rate is so much lower than what you pay demonstrate that you're one of the (laudable) exceptions to the rule?

probably that's the case. however what I was trying to highlight is that it's so wrong for all employers to be generalised as the bad guys who are in it just for themselves exploiting their workers at all costs.

the worst generalisation were the comments that if a business can't pay better wages then they have no place and are not viable.

make no mistake my business is really quite small fry in the scheme of things, and as such makes not a huge difference to equalities and unfairnesses.

I know of many other business owners who, like us, try to do their bit to consider their employees livelihoods as being of vital importance, and these same business owners make great personal sacrifices in some instances to ensure that they keep jobs open as best they can. I'm no shining knight, but I have been in the other side of the fence as being an employee for far more years that I have been a business owner. Pay was always pretty terrible where I worked, but I had a job when many others were losing theirs in the recession of the 80's.

hopefully my comments 'may' have prompted some people to consider the other view .. but with some posters I doubt any form of rational difference of option to theirs would ever be considered .. hey ho

 

[Tarpon]

Fair comment. You sound like one of the good guys operating in a system controlled by the very wealthy which is seeing them get richer at the expense of the poor. All the best with your business.

 

[mikeyjh]

and I don't disagree with you on this, but it also depends on what the job role is ..
however assumptions were made by mikeyjh that I was still paying my people 17k, in fact the lowest person on my payroll is 18k their role is unskilled etc, the market norm for similar roles is 14,500. the next wage band is 19,250, again unskilled but slightly more demanding, we even employ staff at 25k plus, all of which are way above what our competitors pay for the same roles.
yes I could without doubt bring in staff who would do the job for less and make the company and ultimately me more profit and cash.
Mikeyjh doubts any employer works with others interests at heart, suggests anyone unable to pay decent wages should not exist, suggests that. I may be in the wrong market etc. All this without even asking what it is we do, what we currently pay or any other such fact that determines viability of business.
furthermore won't answer a question as to what line of work is, but then goes on to show how little grasp he has in other people's posts when he says 17k isn't decent, but then says 15k would be a start ...

Easy tiger, all I actually said regarding numbers was (and mentioned by several others) "Read. Reiterate my comment, if you can't pay yourself or your employees a proper wage, maybe you're in the wrong business", and I stand by that, entirely. You asked me what I thought was decent.......

 

[mikeyjh]

Easy tiger, all I actually said regarding numbers was (and mentioned by several others) "Read. Reiterate my comment, if you can't pay yourself or your employees a proper wage, maybe you're in the wrong business", and I stand by that, entirely. You asked me what I thought was decent.......

If it helps, I'll tweak my comment to emphasise my meaning "Read. Reiterate my comment, if one can't pay oneself or ones employees a proper wage, maybe one is in the wrong business"

I'm not sure that does help though, and sounds a bit poncey.

 

[KingKev]

Some places are hanging on & pay Living Wage but will be under very heavy scrutiny as council has to save £100m over next 4 years...

http://www.ableandwilling.org.uk/about-us

Thanks for sharing - never heard of these guys before. I for one am more than happy if my Council Tax payments help in some small way to underpin an enterprise like this.
If more people, particularly businesses, knew about them and actively used their services, like Grubbs do, in theory could they break even or even turn a profit over time and take themselves out of the firing line for budget cuts? (As well as providing a great model for similar ventures).

 

[yxee]

There is a legitimate point that having a minimum wage can actually serve to keep people out of work. What if your labour, for whatever reason, is only worth £2/hour to an employer? The government forbids your employment at such a rate. They're effectively saying "unless you are worth at least £6.50/hour, you can't get a job".

Why?

 

[wellquickwoody]

To the supporters of the Living Wage......

Should we be paying this to people who have just left full time education, are still living with their parents, and are seeking their first full time job?

 

[ditchy]

This and was originally spoken at the Tory party conference two weeks ago but chosen by Labour to be leaked on the day that The Govt release favourable economic figures so as to deflect . Oppotunist politics NOT !

 

[A mex eyecan]

Easy tiger, all I actually said regarding numbers was (and mentioned by several others) "Read. Reiterate my comment, if you can't pay yourself or your employees a proper wage, maybe you're in the wrong business", and I stand by that, entirely. You asked me what I thought was decent.......

grr Tiger here, sorry for being long in my reply, I had gone to work by the time you posted ..

you most certainly said a lot more than you admit to here ..

you made suggestion that employers do not work with anyone's elses welfare at heart ..

you made comment about me not paying a living or decent wage without bothering to find the facts on what I did actually pay.

I had originally quoted what was being paid some years back which was 17k

you inferred that was not decent

you went on to say that if we couldn't afford to pay a decent wage perhaps the business was not viable

I asked you what you did for a living, I wouldn't dare form an opinion let alone go onto a website making comment about someone else's circumstances without bothering to try and find out what they were , something that you have done though

you shied away from answering that though, not quite sure what you do that's so secretive, perhaps you work in the secret service.

when I asked what you deemed decent you said 15k upwards, is not 17k upwards of 15k? let alone the fact that staff salaries are now well above the 17k

you have the temerity to think you have the right to pass judgement on what I choose to pay myself, tell me TIger, what the hell has that got to do with you?

I doubt you are even capable of even contemplating that I gain more satisfaction doing what I can to create jobs, and keep jobs for other people and that pleasure outweighs the sum that I earn. Not that's its your business, but from a personal financial position I don't actually have the need to physically earn much at all.

So to based from your statements, if my business can't pay me a decent wage it's not viable. the point of my post was that your view is blinkered, it's a view taken without any consideration to individual cases, needs, markets and purposes. so let's look at the options.

If a business has grown well over several years, paid over the decent wage you suggest, creates more jobs, then through world wide economics it has to reduce its profit margins to a level where it can protect its employees jobs, and that means the owner considers his need for a wage is not as great as his employees, he therefore reduces his wages to a level below what you decide is not decent, you reckon this makes a business unviable?

So in that case what would your view be if I decided to use your rationale and shut the business because for the short term it's having a tough time, rather than hang on in there and ride out the downturn and make all my staff redundant?

Now I don't have a clue as to what it is you do, or what it is that makes you feel so well qualified to make the judgements that you do, because you won't tell. But all I say is I'm darn hopeful that you don't run many businesses or else your staff would have a very risky and delicate employment ... but that just my view.

as for your secondary post about changing your words, I couldn't care how you bother to phrase what you said, I'm just reminding of what you have posted, but that you seem to have forgotten at this stage

Grrr yours Tiger

 

[Nibble]

This was mentioned on the BBCs Daily Politics after Pmqs.
Nick Robinson said the quote looked as if it was taken out of context.
Asked if it was possible to pay disabled people less than the minimum wage and get the government to cover the difference he said that it was an idea worth looking at if it enabled disabled people to get jobs and help their self esteme if the individual so requested.
Milliband just took a quote out of context.Bit like forgetting the economy in his speech and also not wanting the English to have the only say on English law.

Right. So a company gets away with ridiculously low wages and taxpayer coughs up the difference. Christ. Think a little bit would you man.

 

[A mex eyecan]

I don't think there can be any excuse for anyone with what is classed as a disability being paid anything other than the money rate that their role demands.

I'm sure they would work to the best of their ability and as such should get the full rate.

 

[Tarpon]

To the supporters of the Living Wage......

Should we be paying this to people who have just left full time education, are still living with their parents, and are seeking their first full time job?

Why not? I've never understood why the min wage is lower for the young. What's that about (apart from saving money)?

Turns out the (outside London) Living Wage is £7.65 per hour = £14.7k pa based on 37 hour per week.