[Misc] America and guns

[Herr Tubthumper]

It’s their problem, not mine.

 

[cloud]

...

 

[cloud]

Quite shocking that teachers in Colorado will now being given gun defence lessons, on the off chance that they might need to defend themselves. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40353408

Once it becomes the norm in schools, it becomes the norm for the next generation.

When the next generation realise that something is absurd (eg smoking, drink driving) it makes it much easier to phase out.

 

[Igzilla]

Guns gave them their country, it would still be ours without them. There is no hope for America in removing the love of Guns.

As an interesting (I hope) footnote, just reading "In America" by Geert Mak and he says that the notion that America has been armed to the teeth since the time of the revolution is false. Studies show that in 1790 only 15% of households possessed firearms and mass gun ownership only really took off after the 1850`s.

 

[Baldseagull]

As an interesting (I hope) footnote, just reading "In America" by Geert Mak and he says that the notion that America has been armed to the teeth since the time of the revolution is false. Studies show that in 1790 only 15% of households possessed firearms and mass gun ownership only really took off after the 1850`s.

That is interesting. I suspect that it is still a minority of households that have guns in them, and some of those with a bit of reluctance, but there are others with small arsenals in their cellar.
The idea that they could defend themselves from an oppressive state with them though is ridiculous. A Canadian friend had a Texan friend come and visit him, it was the first time in decades that his Texan friend had left his house without a Pistol, and he became quite paranoid in public places I was told. I don't know the guys history or if he ever had cause to pull his pistol in his life, but I don't think it was that, just the security he felt by having it on him

 

[Igzilla]

That is interesting. I suspect that it is still a minority of households that have guns in them, and some of those with a bit of reluctance, but there are others with small arsenals in their cellar.
The idea that they could defend themselves from an oppressive state with them though is ridiculous. A Canadian friend had a Texan friend come and visit him, it was the first time in decades that his Texan friend had left his house without a Pistol, and he became quite paranoid in public places I was told. I don't know the guys history or if he ever had cause to pull his pistol in his life, but I don't think it was that, just the security he felt by having it on him

Just googled and 2016 figures show 36% - 39%, down from a high of 50ish% in the late 80's

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just because i dont agree with the official narrative does not mean an objection to it is without merit. Must be scary for you on a public forum away from your safe space but thats the real world.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/12/10/growing-public-support-for-gun-rights/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/9446474/UK-gun-owners.html

There is a huge difference between stating that where guns are rife and part of the culture it is likly they are here to stay (a sad fact that I accept, in the case of the USA) and advocating an increased amount of gun ownership where presently the levels are extremely low (which is what you have done previously and appear to be doing here ).

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Don't know if you're just joking, but obviously it wouldn't, that was over 200 years ago.

Their nation was built upon frontiersmen and women. That hunting culture never went away, it's still a huge part of many states and communities.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yeah, you've just given them all guns again, and a reason to love them, if all they had were pitchforks, I think we could have managed it. Hence the love of guns.

No, they didn't need to have guns until there was a war, and then they were given some. Now they're not at war, they don't need them again. Also, guns were the weapon of choice for that war - things have moved on and their guns won't help them much if their government starts bombing them with jets.

 

[Triggaaar]

Their nation was built upon frontiersmen and women. That hunting culture never went away, it's still a huge part of many states and communities.

But a hunting culture is different to what's causing the problem now, with automatic rifles and the like.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

But a hunting culture is different to what's causing the problem now, with automatic rifles and the like.

Well it's the hunting culture that makes up a large part of the gun ownership numbers though.

Gang Culture is the biggest issue regarding gun deaths. Chicago has more gun deaths per year than the whole of Alasaka which has the highest gun ownership per head of population in the US.

 

[The Clamp]

If I lived in the US I would own a gun. No question. Theres too many crazy gangstas and redneck ****ers out there. I saw a real footage (dashcam and her mobile, I think) video of two rednecks in a flatbed truck hounding a city boy and his girlfriend in a convertable down some really remote country roads, their yelling about raping the girl etc. They reach a dead end and if the city boy wasn't carrying a handgun in his glove box him and his girl would have had a very horrific day indeed. He took their truck keys at gunpouint and left them so didn't even need to harm anyone. Would I want a gun if those are the people I was dealing with? Yes.

 

[Simster]

Well it's the hunting culture that makes up a large part of the gun ownership numbers though.

Gang Culture is the biggest issue regarding gun deaths. Chicago has more gun deaths per year than the whole of Alasaka which has the highest gun ownership per head of population in the US.

I agree with this. You can also add that the gun laws in the US are not noticeably different from Canada, or Belgium for that matter - so just passing laws that take away guns would not be enough. It is a cultural issue that needs addressing.

I'd draw a parallel to the alcohol laws in this country where they not much different from most of Europe, yet alcohol fuelled problems in this country are far more prominent. (I doubt much has changed culturally since 2007 when this article was published: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7093143.stm)

 

[Triggaaar]

Chicago has more gun deaths per year than the whole of Alasaka which has the highest gun ownership per head of population in the US.

You're mixing statistics. 'The whole of Alaska' - the population of Chicago is several times that of Alaska, and in a more confined space, so it's hardly surprising there are more deaths.

I don't disagree with your general point about gangs though, just the stats you're using.

 

[Baldseagull]

No, they didn't need to have guns until there was a war, and then they were given some. Now they're not at war, they don't need them again. Also, guns were the weapon of choice for that war - things have moved on and their guns won't help them much if their government starts bombing them with jets.

True, but the reason for the the right to bear arms being in the second amendment, is in part to deter tyrannical governance, or repelling an invading force, because of how they came into being. I am not arguing that the position is totally logical.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You're mixing statistics. 'The whole of Alaska' - the population of Chicago is several times that of Alaska, and in a more confined space, so it's hardly surprising there are more deaths.

I don't disagree with your general point about gangs though, just the stats you're using.

It proves that just because guns are present in great numbers it doesn't always mean it will lead to gun deaths.

The gun death statistics also include suicides which is rarely mentioned when people quote death by gun statistics.

 

[Triggaaar]

True, but the reason for the the right to bear arms being in the second amendment, is in part to deter tyrannical governance, or repelling an invading force, because of how they came into being.

Indeed, and that's out of date and it's time it changed.

It proves that just because guns are present in great numbers it doesn't always mean it will lead to gun deaths.

No it doesn't. That's like saying 'There's a house with 4 people living in it, and 100% of the people have guns, and they haven't killed each other, so that's proof that high gun ownership doesn't cause gun deaths'.
There are many more people in Chicago, so there is obviously likely to be more crime.

The gun death statistics also include suicides which is rarely mentioned when people quote death by gun statistics.

Suicides that might not happen if it weren't for owning a gun.

Didn't you introduce stricter gun laws after a mass shooting in Australia? And how many mass shootings have you had since then?

 

[looney]

Your original post was designed to suggest that there are growing numbers of people in the UK looking for american style gun laws which is not the case.

Yea maybe, would be nice if the next leftwing shill starting a thread on their fav issue, ie in this case bash USA/Bash Guns, that they actually bother to post a poll to gauge public opinion beyond the usual ill-informed blowhards with axes to grind.

 

[The Spanish]

the Philippines has a similar gun death rate to the US but no one in the UK ever discusses that country and its population in such negative terms based on it. Why is that? The cultural relevance of the US to Britain and a more identifiable culture, a traditional aversion of the British middle class to the more base aspects of US culture, or a lack of worldliness and context?

 

[Questions]

It will never go away, it's very easy to criticise and I think their "love" of guns is ridiculous. BUT would I want one handy in a home invasion type scenario? would you? I think the answer is yes unfortunately.

I was watching that SAS programme on channel 4 last night, and one of the guys had to listen to his wife get stabbed to death in front of their kids over the phone after a schizophrenic broke in, do you think she wished she had a gun? Of course the argument would be that the murderer would have also had a gun and we go round and round in circles with no answer, basically what the internet was invented for.

I do think more UK police should be armed though, obviously with far greater training than they seem to receive in the states.

The gun would have had to have been locked away with key in a out of the way, difficult to find place so as not to be obvious to other occupants of the property.
Let’s hope all those schizo’s out there show patients when attacking people in their homes.

Or of course just leave the gun lying around ready to blow all those Michael Myers away when they come in. Might be worth checking the children fatality and maiming rates in the states from accidental shootings first though.