[TV] A Cow's Life: The True Cost of Milk? - Panorama

[dsr-burnley]

If they cared about their animals they wouldn't subject them to forced impregnation, rip those babies away from their mothers while the mothers cry out for them and then murder those babies while they're still suffering separation anxiety.

You can't be an animal farmer and care for your animals.
If you love animals and want to support farmers, eat plants. Plants are still grown by farmers in case you didn't realise.

Yes, well if you want to get emotional about it, what about baby carrots? Ripped out of the soil before they have had the chance to live a fulfilled life?

I know there is a nice idea that cows would be much better off dead and the kindest thing to do would be to kill them all now. And of course the alternative view that cows should be allowed to roam free and wild where they would of course still be subject to forced impregnation, but at least the bulls would be able to have a fair fight about who got to do it. And the losing bull would have died eventually, so does it really matter if it takes a few days for it to starve to death after being maimed?

Which alternative do you support? Would you kill them all now or let them roam free? Or have you a better idea?

Animals in the wild do not have vets and do not have euthanasia. They die horrible deaths. Yes, there is the possibility that animals are better freely foraging for their own food and starving in their own way if they can't find it, and treatment from a vet or from a farmer is just interfering with nature. And there is also the possibility that animals actually don't mind being kept (prisoner if you like) in a field (and brought inside when it's cold) and someone ensures they have plenty to eat and don't spend their last days in agony.

 

[BLOCK F]

Well it's also just true. Dairy farming relies on everything I said.

It is also impossible to love animals when you raise them in an inhumane way then murder them years before they would naturally die.

AstroSloth,
Reckon you are on the wrong forum with your views and sweeping statements.
Do you even like football and the Albion?

 

[knocky1]

Except they don't. The companies source their almonds from farms in Spain. Very different to importing their almonds from Spain.

Danone, a multinational worth $44 billion, is unlikely to run a number of farms in Spain for almonds even if the ads for Alpro say otherwise. They will more likely have a few projects here and there to show the benefits of the rain in Spain falling mainly on the plains and then heavily promote these farms. I have no evidence just a cynic about huge corporations and ethical practice. They distort the facts.

Next someone will be telling me Mr Heinz grows his tomatoes in his back garden.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

You may be right but little by little the tide is turning on this stuff. I’m almost 50. Turned veggie a year back. Have massively cut down on dairy and am edging towards (gasp) going vegan. Just an increased awareness over time that all this stuff we like to think of as benign comes at a cost, whether it be environmental or to other sentient beings.

I know, I know. Bore off etc…

It's interesting that as traditional religions have declined [ion this country at least] new ones such as veganism and environmentalism have emerged. Also interesting is that the self righteousness and intolerance which followers of the old religions demonstrated is equally evident amongst the followers of the new belief systems. Thus we see crowds of 'virtuous' people laying down in the road, attaching themselves to moving trains etc - even though the same people probably have no problems sending unlimited e-mails - despite the fact that the annual sending of e-mails has the same carbon footprint as the whole of New Zealand. Such people undoubtedly eat food - how else would they have the strength to harangue the rest of us ? Yet agriculture accounts for around a third of all greenhouse emissions. No doubt these people never travel by car, train or plane, have mobile 'phones, computers of gadgetry of any kind. However their stance as self appointed 'saviours of the planet' does allow them to do feel smugly superior to us lesser beings and to engage in that most gratifying - and hypocritical of activities - pointing the finger. Still let's not be too hard on hypocrisy - it's a fundamental part of human nature - long may it be so !
Vegans also much enjoy their position as the 'new puritans' - quite possibly there is overlap between the the two groups. Oh the joy of being the parent/partner/spouse of such people. If they happen to be militant 'trans women' as well then the joy is unlimited ! Throwing blood over diners in restaurants serving meat may not as transformative as such people think.
Whilst vegans point - correctly - to the suffering of animals caused by meat eating I have yet to hear them mention the destruction and suffering inflicted on the plant kingdom. The scientific jury is still out on whether plants feel pain, but what is beyond dispute is the carnage committed against our woods and forests and the destruction of one of the most sophisticated life systems - namely trees, which have the ability to communicate with one another.

 

[Hotchilidog]

It's interesting that as traditional religions have declined [ion this country at least] new ones such as veganism and environmentalism have emerged. Also interesting is that the self righteousness and intolerance which followers of the old religions demonstrated is equally evident amongst the followers of the new belief systems. Thus we see crowds of 'virtuous' people laying down in the road, attaching themselves to moving trains etc - even though the same people probably have no problems sending unlimited e-mails - despite the fact that the annual sending of e-mails has the same carbon footprint as the whole of New Zealand. Such people undoubtedly eat food - how else would they have the strength to harangue the rest of us ? Yet agriculture accounts for around a third of all greenhouse emissions. No doubt these people never travel by car, train or plane, have mobile 'phones, computers of gadgetry of any kind. However their stance as self appointed 'saviours of the planet' does allow them to do feel smugly superior to us lesser beings and to engage in that most gratifying - and hypocritical of activities - pointing the finger. Still let's not be too hard on hypocrisy - it's a fundamental part of human nature - long may it be so !
Vegans also much enjoy their position as the 'new puritans' - quite possibly there is overlap between the the two groups. Oh the joy of being the parent/partner/spouse of such people. If they happen to be militant 'trans women' as well then the joy is unlimited ! Throwing blood over diners in restaurants serving meat may not as transformative as such people think.
Whilst vegans point - correctly - to the suffering of animals caused by meat eating I have yet to hear them mention the destruction and suffering inflicted on the plant kingdom. The scientific jury is still out on whether plants feel pain, but what is beyond dispute is the carnage committed against our woods and forests and the destruction of one of the most sophisticated life systems - namely trees, which have the ability to communicate with one another.

I thought us vegans were the touchy ones....yeesh

 

[Lower West Stander]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But that’s all it is.

You can find facts to back up on any argument you wish to make. We can all do our bit for the environment in our own way - just please don’t tell me. I drink milk and I eat meat. I also drink organic milk and eat organic beef.

Discuss - yes. Instruct - no.


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[Fritz the Cat]

I thought us vegans were the touchy ones....yeesh

'Touchy' - nah just knockabout jousting. The existentialists were right - for once - existence is absurd. Our attempts to rationalise render it ridiculous.

 

[jimhigham]

It's interesting that as traditional religions have declined [ion this country at least] new ones such as veganism and environmentalism have emerged. Also interesting is that the self righteousness and intolerance which followers of the old religions demonstrated is equally evident amongst the followers of the new belief systems. Thus we see crowds of 'virtuous' people laying down in the road, attaching themselves to moving trains etc - even though the same people probably have no problems sending unlimited e-mails - despite the fact that the annual sending of e-mails has the same carbon footprint as the whole of New Zealand. Such people undoubtedly eat food - how else would they have the strength to harangue the rest of us ? Yet agriculture accounts for around a third of all greenhouse emissions. No doubt these people never travel by car, train or plane, have mobile 'phones, computers of gadgetry of any kind. However their stance as self appointed 'saviours of the planet' does allow them to do feel smugly superior to us lesser beings and to engage in that most gratifying - and hypocritical of activities - pointing the finger. Still let's not be too hard on hypocrisy - it's a fundamental part of human nature - long may it be so !
Vegans also much enjoy their position as the 'new puritans' - quite possibly there is overlap between the the two groups. Oh the joy of being the parent/partner/spouse of such people. If they happen to be militant 'trans women' as well then the joy is unlimited ! Throwing blood over diners in restaurants serving meat may not as transformative as such people think.
Whilst vegans point - correctly - to the suffering of animals caused by meat eating I have yet to hear them mention the destruction and suffering inflicted on the plant kingdom. The scientific jury is still out on whether plants feel pain, but what is beyond dispute is the carnage committed against our woods and forests and the destruction of one of the most sophisticated life systems - namely trees, which have the ability to communicate with one another.

I like to think I don’t preach. Just do my little bit as best I can and move on. Would like to be able to do much more in environmental terms but that takes serious cash (heat pumps, solar panels, top end insulation etc). I made the switch to being veggie and massively scaling down dairy because of my daughter, who is vegan. She didn’t nag me or apply any pressure. We just spoke about the data a lot (she went and got herself a Biology degree). She also takes the view that the more people that do take mitigating steps towards the environment, the more wiggle room it creates for those that don’t. In other words, it allows her peace of mind that she does what she can but she won’t presume to dictate others personal choices.

 

[AstroSloth]

Yes, well if you want to get emotional about it, what about baby carrots? Ripped out of the soil before they have had the chance to live a fulfilled life?

I know there is a nice idea that cows would be much better off dead and the kindest thing to do would be to kill them all now. And of course the alternative view that cows should be allowed to roam free and wild where they would of course still be subject to forced impregnation, but at least the bulls would be able to have a fair fight about who got to do it. And the losing bull would have died eventually, so does it really matter if it takes a few days for it to starve to death after being maimed?

Which alternative do you support? Would you kill them all now or let them roam free? Or have you a better idea?

Animals in the wild do not have vets and do not have euthanasia. They die horrible deaths. Yes, there is the possibility that animals are better freely foraging for their own food and starving in their own way if they can't find it, and treatment from a vet or from a farmer is just interfering with nature. And there is also the possibility that animals actually don't mind being kept (prisoner if you like) in a field (and brought inside when it's cold) and someone ensures they have plenty to eat and don't spend their last days in agony.

Carrots don't have a central nervous system or a brain to process pain or other feelings. You've already shown yourself to be a moron there bud.

Also if you want to save plants then the best way to do it is to become vegan as less plants are grown to feed a human than to feed animals for slaughter each year.

 

[AstroSloth]

AstroSloth,
Reckon you are on the wrong forum with your views and sweeping statements.
Do you even like football and the Albion?

Given that I was born and raised in Brighton, have supported the Albion my whole life, come from a family who have supported them, had a season since as soon as I could due to financial reasons and travel to away games whenever possible. I'd say yes, I love Brighton.

This thread is on animal welfare in the dairy industry, something else I'm passionate about.

 

[AstroSloth]

I like to think I don’t preach. Just do my little bit as best I can and move on. Would like to be able to do much more in environmental terms but that takes serious cash (heat pumps, solar panels, top end insulation etc). I made the switch to being veggie and massively scaling down dairy because of my daughter, who is vegan. She didn’t nag me or apply any pressure. We just spoke about the data a lot (she went and got herself a Biology degree). She also takes the view that the more people that do take mitigating steps towards the environment, the more wiggle room it creates for those that don’t. In other words, it allows her peace of mind that she does what she can but she won’t presume to dictate others personal choices.

Education is generally the best way.

I initially went pescetarian because I had a module on the environment in my uni degree and the statistics are appalling. Then through being pescetarian I watched documentaries on the fishing industry and decided that I didn't want to eat fish anymore. Learning about all the abuse in the meat and dairy industry made me go fully vegan in the end.

I think most people don't realise how horrific the dairy industry truly is and it's because the farmers get help from those in government, we don't learn about all the abuse, just get told it's good for us

 

[Lower West Stander]

Carrots don't have a central nervous system or a brain to process pain or other feelings. You've already shown yourself to be a moron there bud.

Also if you want to save plants then the best way to do it is to become vegan as less plants are grown to feed a human than to feed animals for slaughter each year.

There is just no need for personal abuse.

It reduces any credibility your argument may have. Others have put reasonable arguments up on here which can be debated but your utter intransigence to listen any other view does you no favours.

No one is right or wrong - it’s opinions.


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[Herr Tubthumper]

AstroSloth,
Reckon you are on the wrong forum with your views and sweeping statements.

I have the polar opposite view; he/she/it has found their perfect home on NSC!

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Carrots don't have a central nervous system or a brain to process pain or other feelings. You've already shown yourself to be a moron there bud.

Also if you want to save plants then the best way to do it is to become vegan as less plants are grown to feed a human than to feed animals for slaughter each year.

You are making assumptions about consciousness which are almost certainly not true. Even scientists are now questioning our previous assumptions about consciousness - ie that it's something that happens in the mind - when the evidence for this is slight at best. To be fair Descarte - who was a scientist as well as a philosopher - questioned this assumption a long time ago. Despite being the man who came up with 'I think therefore I am.

 

[AstroSloth]

There is just no need for personal abuse.

It reduces any credibility your argument may have. Others have put reasonable arguments up on here which can be debated but your utter intransigence to listen any other view does you no favours.

No one is right or wrong - it’s opinions.


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It literally isn't opinions though is it. What I've stated are facts. People just don't like being told what happens on dairy farms as it removes their ignorance.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

I like to think I don’t preach. Just do my little bit as best I can and move on. Would like to be able to do much more in environmental terms but that takes serious cash (heat pumps, solar panels, top end insulation etc). I made the switch to being veggie and massively scaling down dairy because of my daughter, who is vegan. She didn’t nag me or apply any pressure. We just spoke about the data a lot (she went and got herself a Biology degree). She also takes the view that the more people that do take mitigating steps towards the environment, the more wiggle room it creates for those that don’t. In other words, it allows her peace of mind that she does what she can but she won’t presume to dictate others personal choices.

Probably the most telling 'data'is that in the 52 years since I left school the world's population has more than doubled. This is unsustainable. I subscribe to the Gia theory - that the planet is a self regulating entity that will counter threats to it's life support systems. I think Covid is just the first of a number of phenomena that will forcibly reduce our number as our greed and stupidity and prodigious ability to breed prevent us from so doing. The main threat to the planet is us.

 

[knocky1]

It literally isn't opinions though is it. What I've stated are facts. People just don't like being told what happens on dairy farms as it removes their ignorance.

I feel the ignorants keep their ignorance by ignoring what they are told about the dairy industry and fight anyone challenging their ignorance. This thread illustrates that.

They believe in the outdoor happy grass fed cow family story. Bit like the happy, organic almond farms in Spain.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Carrots don't have a central nervous system or a brain to process pain or other feelings. You've already shown yourself to be a moron there bud.

Also if you want to save plants then the best way to do it is to become vegan as less plants are grown to feed a human than to feed animals for slaughter each year.

https://images.app.goo.gl/TzbHbC1vPURayaQV6

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[worthingseagull123]

I know the whole thing is horrible. Needless cruelty needs to be dealt with prosecutions.

As for eating meat, I (like most people) just to chose not to think about it.

I eat meat and drink dairy every day. Never really think about the animal. More the enjoyment of what I eat.

Whether in my life time we fully move to synthethic meat, I don’t know.

But there are enough of us who aren’t interested in veganism to ensure the livestock industry wont go away.

 

[dsr-burnley]

It literally isn't opinions though is it. What I've stated are facts. People just don't like being told what happens on dairy farms as it removes their ignorance.

Here's a fact for you. When your argument amounts to little more than "I am right and you are stupid", it doesn't help you get support.