8 car trains for Falmer?

[Peter Grummit]

I know we have had a few debates on this subject.
Anyway, travelled back from Brighton to Lewes tonight on a rare 8 car service. Front 7 cars were able to open doors at Falmer. This does open up the opportunity for 'strengthened' services at match times if Southern get their act together. Would make a huge difference to egress (ie departure) capacity from the Stadium.
PG

 

[Gully]

How difficult would it be to extend the platforms by one carriage length, to allow people from all eight carriages to get on or off there?

 

[willingdon_seagull]

I know we have had a few debates on this subject.
Anyway, travelled back from Brighton to Lewes tonight on a rare 8 car service. Front 7 cars were able to open doors at Falmer. This does open up the opportunity for 'strengthened' services at match times if Southern get their act together. Would make a huge difference to egress (ie departure) capacity from the Stadium.
PG

Funny you should mention this as I had this situation the other night when returning from Brighton to Eastbourne on an 8 carriage train. I asked the guard about when Falmer opens will they be able to run 8 carriage trains and he said that they could easily so long as the trains were going to Eastbourne but if they were terminating at Lewes it would not be possible because if the train is to terminate at Lewes and turn back again towards Brighton, it would have to use platform 5 to terminate and the rear of the train would overhang beyond the signal or something? It would mean having to shunt around and potentially delay what is a busy part of line.

I hope that makes sense? It took a while for me to understand until the guard actually pointed it out at Lewes and then it all made sense.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

What happened when the train reached Lewes?

 

[willingdon_seagull]

What happened when the train reached Lewes?

I think only the doors on the front 5 or 6 coaches opened?

 

[Ernest]

Tell me where all this extra stock will be coming from to form all these 8 car trains and whilst you're at it tell me where all the millions are coming from to pay for the signalling upgrades and platform lengthenings to cope ?
No chance of any extra or longer trains as there is no spare stock, which is why the 313 trains are here and the line between Brighton and Lewes already runs at capacity with no ability to run any extra trains.

 

[Peter Grummit]

Typical old school BR approach to the railways. Find ways not to do things.
Firstly, they are clearly already running 8 car trains on this route so this proves there is no safety case need for platform lengthening or signalling upgrades. Secondly, peak rolling stock requirements are during commuter rush hours, when they bring into play the ex-SWT stock. We will not be playing during commuter rush hours. Most critical will be evening egress after midweek games when the departure profile will be sharpest. Spare rolling stock should be available at this time. Its a question of Southern responding to the commercial opportunity that presents.
PG

 

[Lord Bracknell]

No amount of money can achieve platform lengthening at Lewes.

Lewes - Google Maps

 

[beorhthelm]

Tell me where all this extra stock will be coming from to form all these 8 car trains and whilst you're at it tell me where all the millions are coming from to pay for the signalling upgrades and platform lengthenings to cope ?

well, how about from the other parts of the network that run 4 instead of 8 carriage services on a weekend? im sure those spare carriages are in maintenance at weekends (though are they actually all being maintained?), but the fact is the rolling stock is potentially available. as for signalling, there is plenty of leeway on the usage of the line to run a shuttle service.

whats the big deal about Lewes? if a 7 carriage train can stop with the last carriage under-shooting the platform, why not two under-shooting? and surely most services would be to/from Brigthon with a longer platform anyway, doesnt have to go though to Lewes.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Lewes don't like to encourage a certain amount of visitors. It's a closed shop for inbreds and weirdos.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

well, how about from the other parts of the network that run 4 instead of 8 carriage services on a weekend? im sure those spare carriages are in maintenance at weekends (though are they actually all being maintained?), but the fact is the rolling stock is potentially available. as for signalling, there is plenty of leeway on the usage of the line to run a shuttle service.

whats the big deal about Lewes? if a 7 carriage train can stop with the last carriage under-shooting the platform, why not two under-shooting? and surely most services would be to/from Brigthon with a longer platform anyway, doesnt have to go though to Lewes.

The point is that an 8 carriage train can only terminate at Lewes by delaying other trains on the line. The second point is that trains can't terminate (and reverse) at Falmer without causing really significant delays to other trains on the line.

They would have to send long trains way past Lewes (to Eastbourne or Newhaven) to clear Lewes station. And that means that the longer train would only contribute one useful travel opportunity to the total service.

 

[BensGrandad]

I know nothing about trains but cannot understand why a train with 6 or 8 carriages cannot stop at a platform designed for 4 and only the front 4 cariage door open so that people have to walk to the front of the train to get off and then public anouncements be made at regular intervals advising the passengers of this so why a delay. I always thought trains could be driven from either end of the train so again this is not a problem to stop and the driver walk through the train to drive it out the way it came in but from the other end. I realise that he has to get over to the other line but is that a major problem can they not just drive out of the station to the first change over point then stop for a few seconds to enable the driver to move then drive back on the correct line.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I know nothing about trains bu cannot understand why a train with 6 or 8 carriages cannot stop at a platform designed for 4 and only the front 4 cariage door open so tht people have o walk to the front of the train to get off and then public anouncements be made at regular intervals advising the passengers of this so why a delay. I alkways thought trains could be driven from either end of the train so again this is not a problem to stop and the driver walk through the train to drive it out the way it came in but from the other end. I realise that he has to get over to the other line but is that a major problem can they not just drive out of the station to the first change over point then stop for a few seconds to enable the driver to move then drive back on the correct line.

Yep.

But, on a busy line like Lewes - Brighton, only by delaying other trains, effectively negating any benefit that the longer trains would bring.

And the conveniently located "change over points" of which you speak simply don't exist between Lewes and Brighton. To build them would require a complete and very expensive redesign of the signalling system.

 

[BensGrandad]

I accept the bit about the change over by why does stopping an 8 car train with only 4 doors opening cause a delay it would if they had to stop unload and the move up to unload the other 4 carriages but to just stop and allow people to disembark from those doors only why does this cause a delay. Most trains stop for longer than it takes people to get on and off.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

An eight car train from Brighton can stop at Lewes (as described above). But it could only turn (or reverse out again) at Lewes by occupying track space on the east side of Lewes station that is required by other trains on the Haywards Heath/London route or on the westbound route to Brighton. Those trains would be delayed for longer than would be acceptable.

 

[BensGrandad]

For match days couldnt a train of any length be taken from Brighton to Falmer unloaded or loaded and come back out the same way as is done at Preston Park.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

When I was a transport planner at East Sussex County Council, at the time the Albion's planning application was first submitted to Brighton and Hove City Council, I very nearly got involved in preparing an objection to the planning application, on the grounds that the football club was wrong to be claiming that increased capacity could easily be achieved on the railway to cope with the expected numbers travelling by train to Falmer.

There were a few Albion supporters in the office who were all puzzling over how we might deal with this problem. Fortunately, the club produced a one page letter from Connex (as they then were), that said, simply, that the train operator thought they could cope. No details, of course, but this was considered to be good enough for ESCC not to pursue an objection on those grounds.

Strangely, the issue never got aired at the Public Inquiries either. But the issue basically remains unresolved. One aspect of the capacity problem is that trains on the Lewes - Brighton line are already fairly busy with passengers other than football supporters. They won't go away, just because a football match is happening.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

For match days couldnt a train of any length be taken from Brighton to Falmer unloaded or loaded and come back out the same way as is done at Preston Park.

Without points to enable the returning train to change tracks, only by crashing head-on into an oncoming train.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

This has to go down as one of the dullest threads on NSC ever.

 

[Everest]

Jack Straw could always hire his ladder out for the last carriage.