[Other Sport] 2023 Tour de France

[Hamilton]

Apples and Oranges.

That Dauphiné win by Berg, who btw was outstanding in the Spring Classics this season, was likely a targeted stage by him in the middle of a week long race when all he had was light dom duties for Adam Yates.

This ITT comes in week three of a hellish Grand Tour in which he's had serious dom duties for Pogacar, AND his work is not finished yet. Berg will have been under instructions to have a rest day yesterday, just like lots of other riders.

That’s good context on the Berg performance. I think that had Vingegaard matched Pogacar’s performance yesterday, or even just beaten it by 20 seconds, then I’d be thinking, wow, fair play. As it was he nearly caught both Pogacar and Rodriguez on the road. That’s just mad for the top 3 in the TDF.

 

[BrightonCottager]

Sorry, but Orla Chennaoui irritates me massively - I'm so glad she's not on the Cycling Podcast now.

Anyway, it looked as if Pogacar had a cold sore in the corner of his mouth which would indicate that he is feeling run down. This is unsurprising in week 3 of TdF, but perhaps enough to trigger a dip of form in 'the legs'.

 

[Spiros]

To me it looked as if Vingegaard had been targeting this stage for a while. Over the last few road stages he has been doing the bare minimum to track Pogacar and didn't seem concerned when Pog took a few seconds here and there. Much less draining to be on the defensive than to be the attacker. Van Aert has spend a lot of the tour on the attack, or working hard for Vingegaard. The nature of this win was more about his relative freshness after 2 and a half weeks of racing than anything else

 

[Hamilton]

Sorry, but Orla Chennaoui irritates me massively - I'm so glad she's not on the Cycling Podcast now.

Anyway, it looked as if Pogacar had a cold sore in the corner of his mouth which would indicate that he is feeling run down. This is unsurprising in week 3 of TdF, but perhaps enough to trigger a dip of form in 'the legs'.

The thing is, he rode a blinder. He nearly caught Rodriguez.

 

[Surf's Up]

Indurain won 5 Tours time trialling like that. I don’t know how he did it?

Indeed, makes you wonder does it

 

[Weststander]

That’s good context on the Berg performance. I think that had Vingegaard matched Pogacar’s performance yesterday, or even just beaten it by 20 seconds, then I’d be thinking, wow, fair play. As it was he nearly caught both Pogacar and Rodriguez on the road. That’s just mad for the top 3 in the TDF.

I just don't have this feeling (admittedly in hindsight) of "Wow, where did that come from?" as Pantani, Riis, Armstrong, Virenque, Contador rode past rivals on huge mountain ascents, almost laughing at them. Their body metrics seemingly lower on the day. Now we know why.

Vingegaard is a supreme athlete, he was at the limit yesterday, wrecked as he went over the line.

I suspect this innuendo creeping is from Pogacar fans in the UK, upset that their hero has serious competition.

 

[Doingitforthekids]

To me it looked as if Vingegaard had been targeting this stage for a while. Over the last few road stages he has been doing the bare minimum to track Pogacar and didn't seem concerned when Pog took a few seconds here and there. Much less draining to be on the defensive than to be the attacker. Van Aert has spend a lot of the tour on the attack, or working hard for Vingegaard. The nature of this win was more about his relative freshness after 2 and a half weeks of racing than anything else

To me WVA's performance yesterday was the most surprising. Not to the top two per se, but the rest of the field.

Whilst a hilly time trial, the fact he only finished just in front of the TT powerhouses of the Yates brothers suggests that his performance was below his normal par (due to form, fatigue whatever).

If we exclude WVA then the gap back from the front to the other GC 'contenders' is more normal when compared to the top time triallists over the last few years.

 

[Hamilton]

I just don't have this feeling (admittedly in hindsight) of "Wow, where did that come from?" as Pantani, Riis, Armstrong, Virenque, Contador rode past rivals on huge mountain ascents, almost laughing at them. Their body metrics seemingly lower on the day. Now we know why.

Vingegaard is a supreme athlete, he was at the limit yesterday, wrecked as he went over the line.

I suspect this innuendo creeping is from Pogacar fans in the UK, upset that their hero has serious competition.

I don't know about Pogacar fans, as I don't know any. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing in front of my own eyes and then looking at the past data and performances and asking myself whether it stacks up. I would not have been surprised had Vingegaard won yesterday, but I was very surprised by his margin of victory.

As WVA said, "I was the best of the normal people."

And if you want innuendo, take a look at what French fans are saying about it. No innuendo there. Outright calling out of him. I just want to believe what I'm seeing.

 

[Weststander]

I don't know about Pogacar fans, as I don't know any. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing in front of my own eyes and then looking at the past data and performances and asking myself whether it stacks up. I would not have been surprised had Vingegaard won yesterday, but I was very surprised by his margin of victory.

As WVA said, "I was the best of the normal people."

To be candid, you think Vingegaard is a doping cheat, whilst the rest aren't.

I think that's unfair. No way in the world can we from the armchair know anything material.

This has echoes of the continentals whispering about LeMond alone and Wiggins, whilst seeing their countrymen as gods.

 

[Hamilton]

To be candid, you think Vingegaard is a doping cheat, whilst the rest aren't.

I think that's unfair. No way in the world can we from the armchair know anything material.

This has echoes of the continentals whispering about LeMond alone and Wiggins, whilst seeing their countrymen as gods.

To be candid, I'm questioning what I am being asked to believe.

If you're prepared to tell me in all honesty that you think it is normal for Pogacar to go a minute faster than the rest of the field and for Vingegaard to go 3 minutes faster and that this can all be justified through an examination of their previous results, then fine. But, we have to all go on the evidence.

Vingegaard won only his second ITT yesterday. He didn't just win it, he obliterated the field. If that is not deserving of serious question then I apologise. But if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then there's a possibility that it's not a gazelle.

 

[pb21]

I suspect this innuendo creeping is from Pogacar fans in the UK, upset that their hero has serious competition.

Its a bit unfair to dismiss peoples scepticism on the basis that they are upset Pogačar fan boys.

I am nobodies fanboy, never have been, well maybe Wiggins, but that's it and I keep an appropriate degree scepticism in that regard too.

 

[Weststander]

Its a bit unfair to dismiss peoples scepticism on the basis that they are unset Pogačar fan boys.

I am nobodies fanboy, never have been, well maybe Wiggins, but that's it and I keep an appropriate degree scepticism in that regard too.

The cynicism/innuendo about Vingegaard is unfair.

It’s no different from continentals in their relentless gossiping about Wiggins.

 

[Weststander]

To be candid, I'm questioning what I am being asked to believe.

If you're prepared to tell me in all honesty that you think it is normal for Pogacar to go a minute faster than the rest of the field and for Vingegaard to go 3 minutes faster and that this can all be justified through an examination of their previous results, then fine. But, we have to all go on the evidence.

Vingegaard won only his second ITT yesterday. He didn't just win it, he obliterated the field. If that is not deserving of serious question then I apologise. But if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then there's a possibility that it's not a gazelle.

Walks like a duck is an idiom for when something is probable.

As opposed to someone’s wild guess.

 

[pb21]

The cynicism/innuendo about Vingegaard is unfair.

It’s no different from continentals in their relentless gossiping about Wiggins.

Cynicism maybe unfair, it probably is TBH, but I didn't use that word, rather scepticism.

That's where I am, maybe semantics, but I don't think my scepticism is unfair.

 

[pb21]

Anyway, today's stage, the hardest one of the TdF is looking good with Jumbo riding hard so far ,maybe lining up Vingegaard for the stage win...

 

[RandyWanger]

I think I'm just watching it for the scenery. Places I've lived, roads I've cycled through, resorts I've snowboarded. Bringing back memories of my 20s.

 

[Hamilton]

Walks like a duck is an idiom for when something is probable.

As opposed to someone’s wild guess.

I was using it as a mild and amusing comment to suggest that it might not be what it appears to be, hence the reference to gazelle.

@Weststander I'm not seeking to have some big argument with you here. I'm just saying that it's very surprising and it's surprised experts as well as everyday fans. There are also other experts and everyday fans that say it's fine. Whichever way you look at it, it has divided opinion.

 

[pb21]

POPačar

 

[Hamilton]

Looks like Pogacar is toast now anyhow.

 

[BNthree]

Looks like Pogacar is toast now anyhow.

Yep, that’s that now