[News] 15 yr school girl stabbed to death Croydon

[carlzeiss]

Ah yes, stop and search. If only we had the numbers of police on the streets to stop and search.
PS see my previous post.

I agree with @Beanstalk, youth services have been obliterated in this country. Keep the kids off the streets and into youth clubs, boxing clubs, football etc and it will drastically reduce crime.
Signed
A fully qualified youth worker from 1976-1993

Well there weren't any youth clubs , boxing clubs or football clubs on the run down council estate I grew up on in the early 70's and kids were often out on the streets . Don't recall coming across knives or machetes . There again we did have a Labour government then .

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well there weren't any youth clubs , boxing clubs or football clubs on the run down council estate I grew up on in the early 70's and kids were often out on the streets . Don't recall coming across knives or machetes . There again we did have a Labour government then .

Astonishingly, the early 70s were under Ted Heath. Labour didn't come into power until 1974.

 

[Guinness Boy]

All I know is that in NYC we had a big problem with knife crime back in the 80’s. The mayor at the time increased the amount of police on the streets significantly to deter criminals and over the following 6 months it went down significantly and has largely stayed down certainly in the main Manhattan borough .

And where do you think they come from?

The number of police officers in this country is basically unchanged since 2006. However, it started a steep decline in 2010 when the Tory led coalition came to power and continued to decline through the governments of austerity that followed.

Numbers have then increased since the Johnson administration in particular, but it's only taken us back to where we were 17 years ago. And, guess what, because these officers are new, they are less experienced and far less able than the ones who left the service. Now that regular officers are increasing again finally, the number of PCSOs (who might as well not exist) and Specials is declining rapidly, meaning the increase in the overall force is less than 4% in the period it's increased.

If you were that concerned for 15 year old girls perhaps you should have been speaking out during austerity and not now?

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...workforce-england-and-wales-30-september-2022

 

[Beanstalk]

Well there weren't any youth clubs , boxing clubs or football clubs on the run down council estate I grew up on in the early 70's and kids were often out on the streets . Don't recall coming across knives or machetes . There again we did have a Labour government then .

Not sure that you can use your experience of 50 years ago to talk about solutions for a problem now. And as many have already said on this thread, knife crime was a problem, even if it didn't directly affect you.

It's a bit like if your parents had said that the blackouts of the 70s weren't a problem of the 1920s, so they don't understand what the issue is. It's just completely irrelevant.

 

[sydney]

Sorry to have to say this, and I know the very thought of deterrent sentences will outrage some, but I'm afraid it's time to consider sentences that really will deter young men from, for instance, purchasing a machete or other weapons.

RIP the poor girl, and sympathy to her parents, family and friends.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Have you seen how the traditional stopping and searching of young black males works in this country?

And as I said, you are clearly too young to remember swamp 81.

And how the f*** will repeated stopping and searching of law abiding young black males stop some **** machetting his ex GF?

But, nice to see that you think that no amount of inconveniencing of young black males is too much in the quest to end all street crime which is all done by young black males.

Have a read of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling#:~:text=Racial profiling can make targeted,are perceived as a criminal.

Ignorant comes to mind

 

[LamieRobertson]

On my old road in East croydon a teenager was stabbed to death then a month later another teen was stabbed to death at the vigil held on the same road!

I don't think Croydon is quite as bad as these stories suggest but there's clearly a huge issue that needs addressing.

Teen knife murders are happening everywhere, there was one in Bournemouth last month.

Quite….and then we have
this reported yesterday..not a ‘teen’ murder but just as relevant

Horror 24 hours in London with one dead and one fighting for life after stabbings

A horror 24 hours across London saw four people stabbed with one of the victims left dead.

www.hackneygazette.co.uk

Or this earlier in the month

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-09-08/teenagers-stabbed-after-reports-of-a-gang-fight

 

[schmunk]

All I know is that in NYC we had a big problem with knife crime back in the 80’s. The mayor at the time increased the amount of police on the streets significantly to deter criminals and over the following 6 months it went down significantly and has largely stayed down certainly in the main Manhattan borough .

Glad that's settled, then.

Now, what shall we talk about next...?

Ooh - gun crime!

 

[carlzeiss]

Astonishingly, the early 70s were under Ted Heath. Labour didn't come into power until 1974.

Oh well . still no kids playing with machetes then either under a Labour or a Conservative government .
Not suggesting everything was a bed of roses though .

 

[The Grockle]

I presume you're too young to remember Swamp 81.

I appreciate that some feel that no amount of inconvenience for law abiding black people is too much inconvenience if it stops street crime (which is all done by black people).

If only Alfredmizen were still allowed onto NSC. He could explain how this is a simple problem with simple soluions.

I don't like the 'black argument' when it comes to profiling I'm afraid. It's dangerous, lazy and inaccurate IMO

Cities like Glasgow and Boston (in America had big problems with knife crime and in almost all cases it was white on white. The common theme was that these attacks were being carried out by kids from disadvantaged backgrounds and broken homes.

If ginger people represented the most poor and disenfranchised members of our society you can guarantee most violent crime would be committed by ginger people. The link is circumstance not appearance.

 

[carlzeiss]

Not sure that you can use your experience of 50 years ago to talk about solutions for a problem now. And as many have already said on this thread, knife crime was a problem, even if it didn't directly affect you.

It's a bit like if your parents had said that the blackouts of the 70s weren't a problem of the 1920s, so they don't understand what the issue is. It's just completely irrelevant.

I think my Dad understood a lot more than I ever gave him credit for while he was alive

 

[Guy Fawkes]

And where do you think they come from?

The number of police officers in this country is basically unchanged since 2006. However, it started a steep decline in 2010 when the Tory led coalition came to power and continued to decline through the governments of austerity that followed.

Numbers have then increased since the Johnson administration in particular, but it's only taken us back to where we were 17 years ago. And, guess what, because these officers are new, they are less experienced and far less able than the ones who left the service. Now that regular officers are increasing again finally, the number of PCSOs (who might as well not exist) and Specials is declining rapidly, meaning the increase in the overall force is less than 4% in the period it's increased.

If you were that concerned for 15 year old girls perhaps you should have been speaking out during austerity and not now?

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...workforce-england-and-wales-30-september-2022

View attachment 167165

Surely that should be speaking out during the period of overspending and the emptying of Government coffers that led to austerity in the first place ? Why blame the those dealing with the consequencies / aftermath rather than the looking at cause that led to that conssequence in the first place ?

It's a bit like a father going out and spending all the family savings on Christmas presents, the wife sees what they have done and has to make cuts to the family budget, return some of the gifts for a refund, etc and the kid then blaming the mum for it as they see the mum responsible for taking stuff away and making cuts to their spending (ie less treats, etc).

Don't forget the note left saying there was nothing left in the public coffers when Labour left office

It will also apply when Labour are next in power, they have to deal with what was left by the Tories, so would it be right to blame Labour for anything deemed a mess or blame those who left it behind for the next lot? (same applies whenever Governments change in every country)

 

[dazzer6666]

Glad that's settled, then.

Now, what shall we talk about next...?

Ooh - gun crime!

…or rapidly rising opioid deaths……

 

[Guinness Boy]

Oh well . still no kids playing with machetes then either under a Labour or a Conservative government .
Not suggesting everything was a bed of roses though .

Again, if only these statistics were easily available online.

Ah, well, here we go, murder rate since 1990 to 2023. Pretty variable across years and governments but overall trend down.

And here's since 1901. Increasing constantly until this century.

The first diagram is per 100k and the second per million but simple maths will tell you that the 1970s and 1980s peak figures are pretty much in line with the median line of the first diagram.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be though eh?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870188/trends-and-drivers-of-homicide-main-findings-horr113.pdf

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't like the 'black argument' when it comes to profiling I'm afraid. It's dangerous, lazy and inaccurate IMO

Cities like Glasgow and Boston (in America had big problems with knife crime and in almost all cases it was white on white. The common theme was that these attacks were being carried out by kids from disadvantaged backgrounds and broken homes.

If ginger people represented the most poor and disenfranchised members of our society you can guarantee most violent crime would be committed by ginger people. The link is circumstance not appearance.

I was replying to the suggestions of the OP which are obviously implying that racial profiling should be used to smoke out the knives.

Indeed, of course other types of profiling would be necessary in places where all the crime isn't being done by one ethnic group. And note that my repeated referencing to the OP that all the knife crime in London crime is being done by one group was deliberate - and he evidently seems content that this is the case.

For the record, I consider racial stereotyping to be lazy and prejudiced - by definition. It is informed by an entitled mentality that allows that when the going gets rough, 'we' (white folk) can forfeit the human rights of minorities in order to jolly well deal with the problem. It assumes a position that apparently allows us whites to ride roughshod over all the 'minorities'. It is an outrageously entitled attitude. It is the mentality that had my mates wife interred in Canada in the 40s because her heritage was Japanese, while those of German heritage were left unmolested - because they were white. And so on. Such attitudes and strategies should be thrown into the sea along with the oafs who promote them.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Surely that should be speaking out during the period of overspending and the emptying of Government coffers that led to austerity in the first place ? Why blame the those dealing with the consequencies / aftermath rather than the looking at cause that led to that conssequence in the first place ?

It's a bit like a father going out and spending all the family savings on Christmas presents, the wife sees what they have done and has to make cuts to the family budget, return some of the gifts for a refund, etc and the kid then blaming the mum for it as they see the mum responsible for taking stuff away and making cuts to their spending (ie less treats, etc).

Don't forget the note left saying there was nothing left in the public coffers when Labour left office

It will also apply when Labour are next in power, they have to deal with what was left by the Tories, so would it be right to blame Labour for anything deemed a mess or blame those who left it behind for the next lot? (same applies whenever Governments change in every country)

Even in the toughest of times you have a choice regarding what you cut. Just ask the millions of families on the breadline today picking between heating, housing and eating with rampant inflation and a flat economy.

 

[beorhthelm]

Surely that should be speaking out during the period of overspending and the emptying of Government coffers that led to austerity in the first place ? Why blame the those dealing with the consequencies / aftermath rather than the looking at cause that led to that conssequence in the first place ?

It's a bit like a father going out and spending all the family savings on Christmas presents, the wife sees what they have done and has to make cuts to the family budget, return some of the gifts for a refund, etc and the kid then blaming the mum for it as they see the mum responsible for taking stuff away and making cuts to their spending (ie less treats, etc).

Don't forget the note left saying there was nothing left in the public coffers when Labour left office

It will also apply when Labour are next in power, they have to deal with what was left by the Tories, so would it be right to blame Labour for anything deemed a mess or blame those who left it behind for the next lot? (same applies whenever Governments change in every country)

we cant keep dragging up notes from 2010 or austerity for every problem. in this case the budget was cut because so many other areas were ring fenced from real austerity. another factor was crime had been declining 15 years so may be not so many coppers needed.

Glasgow and elsewhere has shown the success of targeted stop and search in reducing knife and general crime. other forces are scared to use it due to local demographics and fears due to previous use. sadly some areas have other endemic problems and seems no one will tell boys and young men that its not OK to behave the way they do. and most the time it stays in those areas, most people dont live there and dont really care all that much after the news story blows over.

 

[junior]

News coming out of a 15 yr old school girl stabbed to death by her previous boyfriend who is a teenager .

Apparently she told him she didn’t want to see him anymore & he pulled out a machete and killed her .

What sort of ‘ human beings ‘ walk about with machetes on them .

Anyone caught with one should be automatically locked up for 5 years .

I know it’s Croydon, and parts of it are very rough but surely the police can’t allow this to continue .

RIP poor girl .

I don't think the police are 'allowing' it to continue.

If anyone is allowing the it to continue, it is the justice system that comes into play after the police have made an arrest.

Would be interested to know what you think happens after say a 15 year old gets caught carrying a machete in a public place?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Even in the toughest of times you have a choice regarding what you cut. Just ask the millions of families on the breadline today picking between heating, housing and eating with rampant inflation and a flat economy.

Agreed

However how much of the problems they face today is (at least in part) due to a housing market that was allowed to go unchecked for years under a Labour Government ?
10% + increases in value each year was always bound to catch up with society at some point as it means more and more income lost to paying for their accomodation (especially for non home owners (ie renters who don't have an asset they could borrow against) resulting in less disposable income and therefore more vulnerable to economic shocks (like the Russian invasion) and the effects it has on global prices from anything like Gas and oil to food stuffs

Add in ever increasing demands for more and more money to spend on services by other Government and public bodies (often funded by even accuring even more debt, that has to be serviced, reducing the effective taxation income and reduing what can be spent)

To me there is also an issue with having smaller and smaller authorities / departments covering more and more things, effectively making it harder to get money from a more affluant area (which may have a tax surplus) to a poorer area which is then more likely to need to cut spending on those who need it most

 

[Weststander]

we cant keep dragging up notes from 2010 or austerity for every problem. in this case the budget was cut because so many other areas were ring fenced from real austerity. another factor was crime had been declining 15 years so may be not so many coppers needed.

Glasgow and elsewhere has shown the success of targeted stop and search in reducing knife and general crime. other forces are scared to use it due to local demographics and fears due to previous use. sadly some areas have other endemic problems and seems no one will tell boys and young men that its not OK to behave the way they do. and most the time it stays in those areas, most people dont live there and dont really care all that much after the news story blows over.

FACT! That worked.

Although for many reasons, police numbers should never have been cut from 2010, it was a gaff. Rapists, burglars, thugs, rural thieves all gain from stretched police forces.

Mixed messages whenever knife carrying on London is mentioned. The Met are the baddies, how dare they stop n search young folk in a knife hotspot. Then the same complainants say we need more Met officers.