147 Dead in Kenya Attack

[jimbob5]

Pardon?

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT! You can't keep harping back to history. You have to learn to live peacefully in the present. Stop the violence, that's all we want.

 

[BadFish]

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT! You can't keep harping back to history. You have to learn to live peacefully in the present. Stop the violence, that's all we want.

You can't just ignore history when its effects are still felt in the present.

 

[jimbob5]

You can't just ignore history when its effects are still felt in the present.

I did not say you could ignore history. I'm just saying you can't use history as an excuse for your violence. However bad this country is, it's allowed you to live here in relative peace. If anything we are far too tolerant sometimes, to the likes of a wonderful human being being hacked to death by an evil deranged person in Woolwich. I don't really want to speak to you any more, frankly. It sickens me how you can't condemn these murders. Now you are blaming it on what happened in Australia. That seems totally deranged!

 

[BadFish]

I did not say you could ignore history. I'm just saying you can't use history as an excuse for your violence. However bad this country is, it's allowed you to live here in relative peace. If anything we are far too tolerant sometimes, to the likes of a wonderful human being being hacked to death by an evil deranged person in Woolwich. I don't really want to speak to you any more, frankly. It sickens me how you can't condemn these murders. Now you are blaming it on what happened in Australia. That seems totally deranged!

Where have I used history as an excuse for violence?

I merely pointed out that the reclaim Australia group seen to lack any understanding if the irony of their name given this countries history.

You said that we shouldn't keep harking back to history and I disagreed, especially in this case as the ill effects of said history are still very much being felt.

 

[Soulman]

Yes, sadly we have Islamaphobic morons over here too. Like I keep telling you it is not just a UK problem.

Reclaim Australia they are called, seemingly unaware of the irony of their name given the history of this country.

Seems it is always those that are opposed to seeing the country having "some" from the more extreme Muslims wanting their own laws etc, that are wrong eh.
Yet like in the UK, Aus and many other countries with a similar problem, those that are "morons" in your view, have no truck with the many other religions/races that jog along quite nicely in said countries.

 

[Soulman]

Where have I used history as an excuse for violence?

I merely pointed out that the reclaim Australia group seen to lack any understanding if the irony of their name given this countries history.

You said that we shouldn't keep harking back to history and I disagreed, especially in this case as the ill effects of said history are still very much being felt.

So what in history have the Aussies done, and many other countries that are feeling the affects of the religion of peace, actually done then. Or is every country that they are slaughtering in to blame.

 

[BadFish]

So what in history have the Aussies done, and many other countries that are feeling the affects of the religion of peace, actually done then. Or is every country that they are slaughtering in to blame.

Australia have been involved in the same illegal wars in the middle east as the UK. We have the same involvement in US foreign policy as the UK too.

 

[BadFish]

Seems it is always those that are opposed to seeing the country having "some" from the more extreme Muslims wanting their own laws etc, that are wrong eh.
Yet like in the UK, Aus and many other countries with a similar problem, those that are "morons" in your view, have no truck with the many other religions/races that jog along quite nicely in said countries.

Most Muslims jog along quite nicely too, yet the morons seem to have a problem with them. As i keep saying it is the propaganda that is posted on thread like this that blurs the lines between extremists and normal people. Reclaim Australia claim that taxes from anything certified Halal goes to the Muslims and they use it to fund terror. It is thins kind of misinformation that not only makes them morons but also dangerous morons.

 

[Soulman]

Australia have been involved in the same illegal wars in the middle east as the UK. We have the same involvement in US foreign policy as the UK too.

And the other countries, like Kenya, Somalia, Yemen, Nigeria, Chad, Syria, Egypt, Thailand, Sweden, Denmark, France etc.......all their faults eh.

 

[Soulman]

Most Muslims jog along quite nicely too, yet the morons seem to have a problem with them. As i keep saying it is the propaganda that is posted on thread like this that blurs the lines between extremists and normal people. Reclaim Australia claim that taxes from anything certified Halal goes to the Muslims and they use it to fund terror. It is thins kind of misinformation that not only makes them morons but also dangerous morons.

http://www.corybernardi.com/2015/03/25/halal/

 

[BadFish]

And the other countries, like Kenya, Somalia, Yemen, Nigeria, Chad, Syria, Egypt, Thailand, Sweden, Denmark, France etc.......all their faults eh.

i think you need to stop looking at this as being about fault, the situation is far too complicated for that. Global and local decisions over many years have given rise to the situations in all the countries you mention some are linked and some are quite seperate. this coupled with opportunistic people taking advantage of those situations has lead to us being in the situation we are in now. This is why i think it is dangerous when people say we shouldn't look back into history for answers as i think this is where we will find them. With a knowledge of what is causing our problems i think it is more likely that we can find a solution.

Out of interest what do you think has caused the rise of global terrorism?

 

[BadFish]

http://www.corybernardi.com/2015/03/25/halal/

Are you putting this opinion piece by one of our right wing senators forward as evidence for something? Classic fear mongering based on nothing - sadly the Reclaim Australia twits will lap it up.

Sadly the liberal party in Australia are not morons but they do have an agenda.

Still hopefully he will get his inquiry into this and if their are any rackets going on they can be stopped.

 

[BadFish]

Seems you have a few problems in your own country BF.
http://rt.com/news/246757-australia-islam-protests-violence/

http://www.dailystormer.com/reminde...ttend-a-reclaim-australia-rally-on-april-4th/

Where do you start with this kind of nonsense?

 

[pastafarian]

Out of interest what do you think has caused the rise of global terrorism?

ill give that a go with regard to Kenya

With regards to Al Kebab and specifically that region the reasons really are more simple than compared to the rest of the trouble areas. Their reasoning is of course perverse.
Nearly all those in Somalia are Muslims, they are surrounded by countries like Uganda, Kenya, South Sudan, Tanzania and Ethiopia where Islam is in the minority compared to other world faiths. The majority of Muslims in these countries are however Sunni or Sunni offshoots .Like the kebabists.

They carry out these terrorist attacks because they are desperate for retaliation against their own Sunnis in revenge for their vile acts. The Sunnis will then rise up and join the Holy Jihad because they are being attacked. Fortunately the peoples of these countries can see through this but is there a tipping point?

Your bog standard Jihadi has indeed been empowered to a certain extent by western foreign policy, It would be foolish not to acknowledge the part that has played. It is also foolish to blindly solely blame The West and its foreign policy and ignore the most obvious fact that radicals have been empowered by the ease of the internet in ways we are struggling to keep up with.
It is equally foolish to ignore there is a fundamental problem with this religion(given their recent empowerment) and modern living. Obviously not all of them but a significant number of radicals globally that is putting people on edge.

Christianity put its house in order, all be it gradually over a few hundred years a long time ago, but we live in a digital instant age now and Islam needs to put its house in order. There are millions who believe Islam should impose and rule people by divine law. I think its time they made a choice about this, especially in countries that have no history of Islam, either follow this idea with all the ramifications or evolve and join the global community. The ball is firmly in their court at the moment

 

[wellquickwoody]

You can't just ignore history when its effects are still felt in the present.

As an angry young man once sang, 'Stop apologising for the things you've never done'.

 

[BadFish]

ill give that a go with regard to Kenya

With regards to Al Kebab and specifically that region the reasons really are more simple than compared to the rest of the trouble areas. Their reasoning is of course perverse.
Nearly all those in Somalia are Muslims, they are surrounded by countries like Uganda, Kenya, South Sudan, Tanzania and Ethiopia where Islam is in the minority compared to other world faiths. The majority of Muslims in these countries are however Sunni or Sunni offshoots .Like the kebabists.

They carry out these terrorist attacks because they are desperate for retaliation against their own Sunnis in revenge for their vile acts. The Sunnis will then rise up and join the Holy Jihad because they are being attacked. Fortunately the peoples of these countries can see through this but is there a tipping point?

Your bog standard Jihadi has indeed been empowered to a certain extent by western foreign policy, It would be foolish not to acknowledge the part that has played. It is also foolish to blindly solely blame The West and its foreign policy and ignore the most obvious fact that radicals have been empowered by the ease of the internet in ways we are struggling to keep up with.
It is equally foolish to ignore there is a fundamental problem with this religion(given their recent empowerment) and modern living. Obviously not all of them but a significant number of radicals globally that is putting people on edge.

Christianity put its house in order, all be it gradually over a few hundred years a long time ago, but we live in a digital instant age now and Islam needs to put its house in order. There are millions who believe Islam should impose and rule people by divine law. I think its time they made a choice about this, especially in countries that have no history of Islam, either follow this idea with all the ramifications or evolve and join the global community. The ball is firmly in their court at the moment

Islam is not going get its house in order while we continue to interfere in areas that give rise to the extremists. I am not sure if the ball is in their court. The rise of extremist is a global problems which needs a global solution. Perhaps a rethink in US/UK/Australian foreign policy would be a good start. Maybe if people started to look at the reasons for the problems then we may find some solutions. When i say we I mean all of us.

I don't really know the answer but what i am certain of is that hunting out the Islam angle of incidents and framing everything as such only serves to marginalise muslims. Driving the wedge further between cultures cannot assist anyone to get their houses in order.

 

[BadFish]

As an angry young man once sang, 'Stop apologising for the things you've never done'.

Paul Weller had a lot of good things to say. Love the man and love his politics, I have learnt a lot from him.

I think if you read all my posts here you will not find me apologising for anything. History has bought us to the point we are at today and we can learn how we have got here by studying it. If we know how we got here then perhaps we can recognise the mistakes we have made and put them right. I am not asking anyone to apologise for anything or blaming anyone for anything. This situation is far more complicated that that.

 

[pastafarian]

I don't really know the answer but what i am certain of is that hunting out the Islam angle of incidents and framing everything as such only serves to marginalise muslims. Driving the wedge further between cultures cannot assist anyone to get their houses in order.

Im sorry Badfish,you fight a good fight,your intentions are honourable but you are simply wrong.Are you saying there is no islam angle to the attacks in Kenya?

These extreme attacks carried out by extremist religious groups and individuals should be addressed as what they are..It really is time to call a spade a spade,you can only defeat this evil when you confront it head on,we will never defeat it if we bury our head in the sand and deny it exists simply because we want an easy life and we dont want people throwing accusations of racist around

 

[BadFish]

Im sorry Badfish,you fight a good fight,your intentions are honourable but you are simply wrong.Are you saying there is no islam angle to the attacks in Kenya?

These extreme attacks carried out by extremist religious groups and individuals should be addressed as what they are..It really is time to call a spade a spade,you can only defeat this evil when you confront it head on,we will never defeat it if we bury our head in the sand and deny it exists simply because we want an easy life and we dont want people throwing accusations of racist around

No I am not saying that but I also don't trust the media to give is the full picture. They will always go for the Islam angle. There is of course a big problem with Extremist Islam and you are right that we should be addressing it. I am not denying it exsists not for a second, all i am saying is that while we focus on this so much we will atrribute many things to Islamic extremisn that simply isn't there. Spreading fear throughout the populations and driving that wedge in further as we create groups like The reclaim Australia morons who continue the cycling of propaganda and misinformation.

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

you can only defeat this evil when you confront it head on...

What can we do?