Evolution and Big Bang are lies from Hell

beorhthelm · Oct 15, 2012

Stewart said:
"Evolve." Evolution says that a strike of thunder caused the first cells to began life as we know it.

wrong again, evolution describes a process of change in life forms, it doesnt even attempt to hint at how life began.

you still havent addressed how how your god allows suffering, disease, famine etc. even going to attempt it or stay with your misunderstanding of evolution?

Kalimantan Gull · Oct 15, 2012

Interesting thread, apart from the Stewart contributions, but to be expected. The biggest take home I'm getting is that the reasonable christians, the likes of [MENTION=22975]DavidinSouthampton[/MENTION] and @Brovian are effectively arguing that religion isn't needed at all, just a nice social club and some positive thinking.

brightonrock · Oct 15, 2012

There was a brilliant horizon documentary this week that I watched last night on iPlayer, "before the big bang'. It describes how the idea of the big bang is increasingly being doubted by the world's leading scientists, the notion of 'something coming from nothing', because they are discovering and redefining what 'nothing' actually means. Super complicated, but fascinating stuff.

00snook · Oct 15, 2012

brightonrock said:
There was a brilliant horizon documentary this week that I watched last night on iPlayer, "before the big bang'. It describes how the idea of the big bang is increasingly being doubted by the world's leading scientists, the notion of 'something coming from nothing', because they are discovering and redefining what 'nothing' actually means. Super complicated, but fascinating stuff.

Yeah I saw that. Genuinely boggles the brain trying to think about it. I absolutely love it.

Science is so cool. Just trying to think about dark matter, a Universe ever expanding (though what is it expanding into), the fact that with a very powerful telescope you are actually looking back in time, string theory, that Quantum Mechanics and The General Theory of Relativity do not match up at all.

All of this is just amazing. I am a very very amateur scientist, and do not pretend to know anything about this, but I just love trying to learn more.

Like many religious folk, I often look to the heavens. Not for divine inspiration, or to try to speak to God, but to remind myself that life on earth is essentially a massive cosmic fluke, and that I should remember that in the grand scheme of things I am as insignificant as any other organism on the planet. I should therefore try to live a good life, enjoy my family and friends and pass my genetic code onto the next generation and continue this magical existence that we have as human beings.

Its easy to see why religion appeals to many as it provides significance into an otherwise insignificant existence. But as is said above, our existence is hugely significant. Not because God made us, but because science did.

Herne Hill Seagull · Oct 16, 2012

Sorry to drag this back to the top, but it seems (clearly inspired by this thread) that these two worlds are about to come together for what I assume will be rather more formal discussion:

BBC News - Big Bang and religion mixed in Cern debate

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 16, 2012

Kalimantan Gull said:
Interesting thread, apart from the Stewart contributions, but to be expected. The biggest take home I'm getting is that the reasonable christians, the likes of [MENTION=22975]DavidinSouthampton[/MENTION] and @Brovian are effectively arguing that religion isn't needed at all, just a nice social club and some positive thinking.

I think you are taking that a bit too far, but I hear what you are saying. One member of a congregation actually berated me once for being too challenging - "I just come to church to meet my friends and be reassured"..... Well, there's more to it than that, Lady, amd I meant in terms of the way you live your life and treat others.

Nibble · Oct 16, 2012

DavidinSouthampton said:
I think you are taking that a bit too far, but I hear what you are saying. One member of a congregation actually berated me once for being too challenging - "I just come to church to meet my friends and be reassured"..... Well, there's more to it than that, Lady, amd I meant in terms of the way you live your life and treat others.

Why does there have to be more to it? That's what you get out of it, she may get another thing out of it. As reasoned as you are and clearly an intelligent person it still boils down to what most religious followers are "It's my way or eternal damnation and pits of flames and don't you damn well forget it". I despair.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 16, 2012

beorhthelm said:
ah free will, the defense of the religious faced with the prospect that their god neither knows or cares to intervene in the world. how is being born into a family with no food free will? how are failing rains in some forsaken corner of Africa free will? how is fleeing war and contracting typhiod in a fetid refugee camp free will?

I appreciate you are not quoting me on this, but Stewart. But I mentioned Free Will on here a while ago in response to someone talking about everything being pre-derstined. I think you would find very few thinking people of faith who would claim that Everything in the World is perfect.

The free will bit might come in to it in that the more fortunate are able to help the less able. God's frustration might be that he has to rely on the likes of us to "get it sorted". And when I say "the likes of us", I am well aware that the faith communities do not have a monopoly on good works - I believe that OXFAM was founded very specifically as a non-christian organisation.

PS - When studying French A-level from 1969 to 1971, I read Voltaire's Candide, which was very entertaining but very thought provoking as it dismantles the claim that "Everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds"

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 16, 2012

Nibble said:
Why does there have to be more to it? That's what you get out of it, she may get another thing out of it. As reasoned as you are and clearly an intelligent person it still boils down to what most religious followers are "It's my way or eternal damnation and pits of flames and don't you damn well forget it". I despair.

If people read the bible and accept a Christian faith, about 90% of the bible is about social justice and the like. So I personally would argue that anybody who takes it just for the promise of salvation stuff is seriously wrong.

Nibble · Oct 16, 2012

DavidinSouthampton said:
If people read the bible and accept a Christian faith, about 90% of the bible is about social justice and the like. So I personally would argue that anybody who takes it just for the promise of salvation stuff is seriously wrong.

She said she takes reassurance in attending church. I think it's pretty arrogant to interpret that how you would like to see it. Ultimately Christians believe if you don't accept JC and don't repent you will suffer in eternal hell and that to me reeks of pomposity and arrogance and is the main reason I have no time for religion in my life. And I have read the bible many times, my great uncle was the Dean of Belfast, my Grandftaher the Arch Deacon and my Uncles all in the church.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 16, 2012

Nibble said:
She said she takes reassurance in attending church. I think it's pretty arrogant to interpret that how you would like to see it. Ultimately Christians believe if you don't accept JC and don't repent you will suffer in eternal hell and that to me reeks of pomposity and arrogance and is the main reason I have no time for religion in my life. And I have read the bible many times, my great uncle was the Dean of Belfast, my Grandftaher the Arch Deacon and my Uncles all in the church.

I don't have a problem with the seeking reassurance bit - i would argue at the rejection of the need to help other people, or the rejection of the reminder that for many - if not most on a global scale - it is a big bad nasty old world out there.

BadFish · Oct 16, 2012

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 16, 2012

BadFish said:

I never liked Ricky Gervais anyway. Always able to come up with opinionated, simplistic, trite crap, whatever the subject.

BadFish · Oct 16, 2012

Originally Posted by BadFish

Click to expand...

I never liked Ricky Gervais anyway. Always able to come up with opinionated, simplistic, trite crap, whatever the subject.

Over simplistic it is but that doesn't make it any less true.

What I struggle to understand though, is how God can allow things like that girl getting shot to happen in his name. To me this either is strong evidence that he doesn't exsist or strong evidence that he is the vengeful hateful god of the old testiment. I just cannot accept that the god of the new testiment, or jesus would allow such hideous things to be done in their name.

Nibble · Oct 16, 2012

Being a humanist myself I find Ricky's tweet quite good. However, lots of things are done by bad people using religion as an excuse and that poor girl being shot is an example of this.

Silk · Oct 16, 2012

Nibble said:
Being a humanist myself I find Ricky's tweet quite good. However, lots of things are done by bad people using religion as an excuse and that poor girl being shot is an example of this.

Yup. Actually religion isn't to blame, and "science" not to be praised. Human evil, and human endeavor.

00snook · Oct 16, 2012

I think you will all find the answers lie here.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 17, 2012

BadFish said:
Over simplistic it is but that doesn't make it any less true.

What I struggle to understand though, is how God can allow things like that girl getting shot to happen in his name. To me this either is strong evidence that he doesn't exsist or strong evidence that he is the vengeful hateful god of the old testiment. I just cannot accept that the god of the new testiment, or jesus would allow such hideous things to be done in their name.

I know we have been here before, but the concept of free-will. God is not all-controlling when it comes to the Human race, and sometimes he (or she) must be sitting up there or wherever holding his or her head in his or her hands and wondering what on earth we are playing at and why on earth people do the things that they do ostensibly in his or her name.... or its name.

It isn't meant to be easy to be a Christian, or a person of any other faith, for that matter, and decent thinking Muslims (the vast majority in this country, i would guess) would abhor what the Taliban do in the name of their God.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 17, 2012

Nibble said:
Being a humanist myself I find Ricky's tweet quite good. However, lots of things are done by bad people using religion as an excuse and that poor girl being shot is an example of this.

Absolutely - and plenty of good things are done by people who profess no belief.

Papa Lazarou · Oct 19, 2012

I have just posted this on twitter, but it's relevant to this discussion. Here is proof* that the earth IS only 6000 or so years old.

http://youngearth.com/

* may contain no proof

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