rogersix
Well-known member
- Jan 18, 2014
- 8,257
lets hope we hit the bottom soon!
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[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?
- Thread starter Pavilionaire
- Start date
- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,875
To speak frankly, democracy has always been in crisis and always will be. There has never been a time when democracy has run unimpeded by individuals on all sides wanting to turn events, situations or decisions in their favour.
I think social media has perhaps made it easier for us to see where pressure is being applied, but the nature of parliamentary democracy is such that it doesn’t have the speed of movement to counter fast-moving threats, even if it sees them. We don’t want “fast” legislation, we want well thought through and effective legislation, which takes time, and inevitably requires the expansion of the Civil Service and cost of government. Small government is a pipe dream all the time we keep enacting new laws and not repealing old laws.
Money buys power, we have followed America (wrongly) in believing that unfettered inequality is desirable and permissible, and we will not elect a government that would act against this principle. We’re in the age of the shopkeeper, where financial power = political power. Just look at Musk’s intervention in US politics. He all but shut America’s government down without being in any form of office. Frightening and to be repeated over here.
Musk threatens to fund Reform, the result? The Conservatives remain hard right to appease him. At the point that people tire of Labour, they elect a hard-right Conservative Party as a protest, and the money put into public services decreases further to pay for tax cuts for Musk and his pals.
We’re owned, and we’d need a far greater share of the British electorate to take politics seriously and genuinely think about their choices before this situation could change.
I think social media has perhaps made it easier for us to see where pressure is being applied, but the nature of parliamentary democracy is such that it doesn’t have the speed of movement to counter fast-moving threats, even if it sees them. We don’t want “fast” legislation, we want well thought through and effective legislation, which takes time, and inevitably requires the expansion of the Civil Service and cost of government. Small government is a pipe dream all the time we keep enacting new laws and not repealing old laws.
Money buys power, we have followed America (wrongly) in believing that unfettered inequality is desirable and permissible, and we will not elect a government that would act against this principle. We’re in the age of the shopkeeper, where financial power = political power. Just look at Musk’s intervention in US politics. He all but shut America’s government down without being in any form of office. Frightening and to be repeated over here.
Musk threatens to fund Reform, the result? The Conservatives remain hard right to appease him. At the point that people tire of Labour, they elect a hard-right Conservative Party as a protest, and the money put into public services decreases further to pay for tax cuts for Musk and his pals.
We’re owned, and we’d need a far greater share of the British electorate to take politics seriously and genuinely think about their choices before this situation could change.
There will always be the Mike Johnson's of the world who bow down to the Trump/Musks and kick the can down the road and try to appease everyone so they can grovel at the feet of those in power. He did get a bill passed that didn't fix a thing but the government workers will not suffer a non-Christmas season.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,135
This is called defending bullshit. A usually accurate poll said +3 for Harris but ended up +13 for Trump, that is 16 points. The CEO resigned the next day, it was rigging.
When else has any government sued a newspaper for publishing a poll that turned out to be inaccurate?
SLAPP, pure and simple.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,135
We are in undiscovered country here, if they have done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear, isnt that the get Trump mantra?
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,135
Don't know who you are talking to here but that is old news as they are voluntary although they have been accused of manipulating ignorant foreign women.
Rdodge30
Well-known member
- Dec 30, 2022
- 917
I was only asking if it’s the case and if there’s any evidence to support it
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 1,135
- Jul 10, 2003
- 28,220
These threads have only been noticeable by their absence since @Right Brain Ronnie decided he was 'leaving' and @Is it PotG? decided to wind it on political threads at the same time. Just yet another happy coincidence for the two of them, I'm sure
But I'm sure the pair of you can keep bouncing these threads using complete, simple and pure idiocy
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I'll just carry on voting Labour, I think.
Until the witch hose nose flute party starts getting proper traction, it seems the sensible option
Ronnie has been perma-banned, for being nothing, and I mean nothing, but a troll.These threads have only been noticeable only by their absence since @Right Brain Ronnie decided he was leaving and @Is it PotG? decided to wind it on political threads at about the same time. A complete coincidence I'm sure
But I'm sure the pair of you can keep bouncing these threads using complete and simple, pure idiocy
Potty was never much of a communicator? English doesn't seem to be his native tongue? And punctions is not his friend?
Carlzeiss seems to have some sort of brain injury that means he can only post links to fake news sites and then act with incredulity when asked what the f***ing point it is he is trying to make.
And I have had them all on ignore for some time.
If only wokeflake lefty Trained Marxists like yourself would stop replying to these cheese-heads, I would never have to think about them ever again. Use the ignore function. FFS.
FFS!
FFS.
Didnt people have the opportunity to have opposite to what we have now by voting Corbyne in.
Indeed.
So 'we' didn't fancy Jezza but we did fancy Starmzy.
I am at a complete loss to understand what is wrong or hard to follow and understand about any of that.
It is what it is.
(I have no sympathy with liberals and greens who think they will never get a liberal or green government and therefore want to change the system, while po-facedly lecturing the rest of us about how our vote doesn't count and how horrible and unfair it all is. Be better, and people might think about voting for you
)
- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,875
There was an opportunity for “proper” 70s socialism with Corbyn, but enough of the electorate remembered it to be unenthused.
While the anti-semitism in the Labour Party was predictably weaponised by Corbyn’s opponents, it did exist, and he seemed bizarrely incapable of condemning it.
I can’t see him robustly opposing Putin’s attempted land grab either. His ambivalent “faults on both sides” nonsense would have been robustly exploited by Putin to weaken Ukraine’s support.
It really was as simple as insufficient of the electorate deemed him suitable. I’m not convinced they were wrong.
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 26,194
Quite a lot to unpack there, but your arguments are fueled by revisionism.
Importantly for a few points:
The Lib Dems could well have gone into coalition with Labour, but their red line was the immediate removal of Brown as PM. Labour refused and the talks broke down.
Once in power they were strangled at birth by a very "conservative" Whitehall machine
Lastly I've always found Lib Dems to be cake and eat it and deep down very self interested. I found interesting at the time (as I do now) that students had thrown away their historic radicalism and gone for the pure self interest in voting for a party that a had a single issue directed at them. I'd go as far to say that rather than feeling sorry for the students that voted them, I blame them in part for the years of austerity that followed.
Rdodge30
Well-known member
- Dec 30, 2022
- 917
Research by the The Institute for Public Policy Research supports Labour’s proposal to reduce voting age to 16 and suggests offering ballots to foreign nationals.
Britain is sliding towards populism because a record number of renters and non-graduates are staying at home during elections, research claims.
Its suggestions for reform include giving millions of foreign nationals in the UK a right to vote and changing the day of elections to the weekend.
As far as I can see..and I haven’t read the full report… the theory is:
1. Voter turnout is down amongst non graduates and renters (amongst others)
2. This is giving rise to Populist support
3. We certainly don’t want that so children and foreigners should be allowed to vote.
The think tank argues that “the only off-ramp to the heightening doom loop of voting patterns, skewed policy and populist politics is democratic reform”.
So if you don’t like the way the electorate are voting- change the electorate.
Britain is sliding towards populism because a record number of renters and non-graduates are staying at home during elections, research claims.
Its suggestions for reform include giving millions of foreign nationals in the UK a right to vote and changing the day of elections to the weekend.
As far as I can see..and I haven’t read the full report… the theory is:
1. Voter turnout is down amongst non graduates and renters (amongst others)
2. This is giving rise to Populist support
3. We certainly don’t want that so children and foreigners should be allowed to vote.
The think tank argues that “the only off-ramp to the heightening doom loop of voting patterns, skewed policy and populist politics is democratic reform”.
So if you don’t like the way the electorate are voting- change the electorate.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
I'd go along with this, although you're being incredibly harsh in suggesting that the LD-voting students should be blamed (even in part) for austerity, which is yet to go away. Maybe the austerity is a result of the enormous mire that handing over so much to the financial sector by all parties (actually, on that, Vince Cable was one of the only parliamentarians that was ahead of the curve on that front) resulted in. It was also as a result of a gullible wider electorate that parroted out the necessity of austerity once Osborne was handed control -- NSC would be a quite wonderful archive for that.
But, yes, it was difficult for the LDs in the immediate aftermath of the election due to the electoral arithmetic.