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[Albion] We f***ed it up again, ole ole!



Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,503
Hove
Would you have played a different set up due to that list of constraints?
I wouldn’t have played that open full stop. Palace set their players inside but level with our full backs, it was amazing to see us accept that risk as it didn’t equate to an attacking advantage, just left us open.

They had far more clear cut chances because of this, with far less attacks. At times in the first half we looked more like a back 2.
 




Flounce

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 15, 2006
4,628
First part is true, second isn't. This team is not as good as the one two-three years ago. They may well be in a year, but right now we have a bunch of (very talented) rookies/semi-rookies learning to play in the league.

Its also a squad with ~28 players and most of them on a similar level as each other. Both Potter and De Zerbi inherited squads with a clearer hierarchy whereas neither Hurz nor us know what the 15-16 man "core" is.

Imo, we signed too many attacking players in the summer. They're competing with each other as much as with the opponents.
BUT he has us looking weak, panicky even in defence, Potteresque in attack and useless in midfield
 




um bongo molongo

Well-known member
Jul 26, 2004
3,072
Battersea
Potter inherited a shit PL squad, Fabian has our best ever squad and is stumbling along a bit cluelessly though?
Sorry to pick on this particular comment, but I keep reading it’s our best ever squad but I’m not sure it is. Most expensively assembled for sure. But Caicedo, Mac A, Trossard, Bissouma, White, Cucurella, Gross would all start. Maybe Mwepu too. Dunk has aged badly. And none of the new boys has had a massive impact (yet). Baleba is raw, Rutter inconsistent and the rest have done pretty much nothing.
 


Flounce

Well-known member
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Nov 15, 2006
4,628
Sorry to pick on this particular comment, but I keep reading it’s our best ever squad but I’m not sure it is. Most expensively assembled for sure. But Caicedo, Mac A, Trossard, Bissouma, White, Cucurella, Gross would all start. Maybe Mwepu too. Dunk has aged badly. And none of the new boys has had a massive impact (yet). Baleba is raw, Rutter inconsistent and the rest have done pretty much nothing.
Fair comment, but they were also young kids, Gross apart, at the time much like the current squad but they were well coached and had a clear idea about how the manager wanted them to play. Do you really think the current squad have the same level of understanding about how they should play?

I don’t
 




Weststander

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Aug 25, 2011
69,910
Withdean area
I wouldn’t have played that open full stop. Palace set their players inside but level with our full backs, it was amazing to see us accept that risk as it didn’t equate to an attacking advantage, just left us open.

They had far more clear cut chances because of this, with far less attacks. At times in the first half we looked more like a back 2.

When we played that way at Stamford Bridge first half, anyone here critical of it was condemned as a heretic in a pile on.

I lack your coaching knowledge. But to my layman’s eye there remains a fundamental of enough players being well placed should you lose possession in the opposition half et seq. In the early days of FH and Slot in the PL I read this can be achieved by CM’ers with pace who do enough until others arrive back.

I realise it’s risk-reward. But imho at times it’s just daft … Spurs first half, today, Stamford Bridge. Why make ourselves so easy to score against on the transition? Making it bloody hard to outscore the opposition.
 


Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,937
BUT he has us looking weak, panicky even in defence, Potteresque in attack and useless in midfield
Well, does he have us looking like that or is our inexperienced and unbalanced squad structure making us look like that?

Fab has things to learn and a big puzzle to figure out but this was always going to be a bumpy squad-development season. Not saying "no one would do it better!" but it really isn't as easy as "we bought teenagers for £200m, so we should compete in the top immediately". We have a young inexperienced team and bad runs of form and getting shat on every now and then are unfortunate parts of the education to become top footballers.
 


um bongo molongo

Well-known member
Jul 26, 2004
3,072
Battersea
Fair comment, but they were also young kids at the time, much like the current squad but they were well coached and had a clear idea about how the manager wanted them to play. Do you really think the current squad have the same level of understanding about how they should play?

I don’t
I don’t, but people also forget how turgid we were under Potter for a long time. I expected us to finish towards the top end of the bottom half this season and still do. We have a lot of new players, and a new manager, to bed in, all of whom are young. If anything the 4th place and the start we’ve had were the anomaly -I think we’re seeing a reversion to the mean, at least till a few more of the newbies start to find their feet. We’ve had nothing yet from Gruda, Ferdi, o’Riley because of injuries.
 




Zeus

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2022
695
Sorry to pick on this particular comment, but I keep reading it’s our best ever squad but I’m not sure it is. Most expensively assembled for sure. But Caicedo, Mac A, Trossard, Bissouma, White, Cucurella, Gross would all start. Maybe Mwepu too. Dunk has aged badly. And none of the new boys has had a massive impact (yet). Baleba is raw, Rutter inconsistent and the rest have done pretty much nothing.
I’d still rather have Pervis that Cucurella but no one we have bought in is at the levels of those above when they left us. Mwepu would breeze into our central midfield.
 


Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,937
I’d still rather have Pervis that Cucurella but no one we have bought in is at the levels of those above when they left us. Mwepu would breeze into our central midfield.
We can't afford players who are at the level these players were when they left us.

We have to do the same as when we bought these once not-yet-good-enough players and develop the talents we've signed.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,503
Hove
When we played that way at Stamford Bridge first half, anyone here critical of it was condemned as a heretic in a pile on.

I lack your coaching knowledge. But to my layman’s eye there remains a fundamental of enough players being well placed should you lose possession in the opposition half et seq. In the early days of FH and Slot in the PL I read this can be achieved by CM’ers with pace who do enough until others arrive back.

I realise it’s risk-reward. But imho at times it’s just daft … Spurs first half, today, Stamford Bridge. Why make ourselves so easy to score against on the transition? Making it bloody hard to outscore the opposition.
Did you feel there was any real desire from Minteh, Atari, Baleba, Mitoma or Georginio to properly get back when we lost the ball today? I didn’t, and I didn’t think Estupinan showed enough desire to get back in at times either. The channel between our CBs and fullbacks was huge, any ball played in that area got in behind us.

Lamptey’s attempt at taking out the ball for their second wasn’t an isolated error, he was in trouble all half, and not all of his making either. He makes an error yes, but it was a symptom of what was happeneing I felt.

Do I want us less attacking? No, but I feel we can be more narrow in our positioning once we lose the ball. Lamptey and Estupinan appear to start wide and stay wide. Nothing covering either of them either - if that happens as a full back, you surely need to get closer to someone, whether that’s your CB or a deeper CM, but we just seemed to isolate both of them of our own doing.

P.s this could all be talking shite of course, just didn’t feel like a day to be too critical of individuals when the system is seem at fault imho
 






Zeus

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2022
695
We can't afford players who are at the level these players were when they left us.

We have to do the same as when we bought these once not-yet-good-enough players and develop the talents we've signed.
I didn’t say we could replace with the same quality just agreed that the current side doesn’t have it. The fact our midfield two consists of a kid who couldn’t get a game for Coventry 6 months ago and Baleba who was miles off for a large chunk of last season is telling.
 


Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,937
I didn’t say we could replace with the same quality just agreed that the current side doesn’t have it. The fact our midfield two consists of a kid who couldn’t get a game for Coventry 6 months ago and Baleba who was miles off for a large chunk of last season is telling.
Its not optimal of course. In the best of worlds we sign a real midfielder to replace Alexis and that player would now have been in his second year with the club and perhaps grow into the league like Baleba has done (and will continue to do).

Unfortunately the Dahoud signing was a failure and we have a lag in our midfield build meaning some players (like Ayari) is getting a bigger role than optimal. Hopefully it makes him a top player next season. Right now he isn't, though he's been fine overall.

We tried to compensate for this issue through playing Milner in the first few games and it worked well, his experience did a lot for the coherency of our team. Unfortunately he is too old to keep fit enough for PL ball so we've had to be more urgent in playing our inexperienced players. With mixed results.
 




UnhingedSeagull94

Have a nice day….BANGBANG
Jan 6, 2024
94
Both are strong candidates for a loan in January. Turns is 22 and has had a couple of loan spells in League 2; with his contract ending in the summer the loan is likely to b of the 'shop-window' variety. McConville is younger - I suppose he could do a Hinshelwood and move straight from PL2 to the PL, but that's a huge ask, especially for a 19 year old CB.
Still, Hurzeler has shown he's not averse to playing youngsters like Hinsh, Baleba and Ayari, so who knows?
I’ve watched a lot of the 21s over the last 2 seasons. McConville is definitely ready for a punt at the first team, hence why he was on the bench today. Nice kid too, can see him going a long way with the right development.
 


Zeus

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2022
695
Its not optimal of course. In the best of worlds we sign a real midfielder to replace Alexis and that player would now have been in his second year with the club and perhaps grow into the league like Baleba has done (and will continue to do).

Unfortunately the Dahoud signing was a failure and we have a lag in our midfield build meaning some players (like Ayari) is getting a bigger role than optimal. Hopefully it makes him a top player next season. Right now he isn't, though he's been fine overall.

We tried to compensate for this issue through playing Milner in the first few games and it worked well, his experience did a lot for the coherency of our team. Unfortunately he is too old to keep fit enough for PL ball so we've had to be more urgent in playing our inexperienced players. With mixed results.
As has already been said tonight it does make the Gilmour sale mystifying as he had established himself a decent PL operator and now looking like a gamble that isn’t paying off. I think the club badly over estimated Weiffer and O’Rileys ability to hit the ground running.
 
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Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,937
As has already been said tonight it does make the Gilmour sale mystifying ans he had established himself ans ande ent PL operator and now looking like a gamble that isn’t paying off. I think the club badly over estimated Weiffer and O’Rileys ability to hit the ground running.
Well, I agree with that.

Ok, I get that he wanted to take the chance to move to a bigger club but clearly they didn't want to pay a market price for him and we still went through with it despite not having a similar player in the squad.

Many were happy about selling Billy because "he isn't scoring or assisting". But as I said at the time, that isn't the job. The job is to be able to make the ball go from our defenders to attacking players without making too many dangerous mistakes in defensive midfield. Wieffer, Ayari etc, even Baleba, has shown that its really a lot more difficult than it looks.

I'm very hopeful Jack Hinshelwood could step into that role but we overplayed him again so he's injured again.
 


LamieRobertson

Not awoke
Feb 3, 2008
48,688
SHOREHAM BY SEA
Well, I agree with that.

Ok, I get that he wanted to take the chance to move to a bigger club but clearly they didn't want to pay a market price for him and we still went through with it despite not having a similar player in the squad.

Many were happy about selling Billy because "he isn't scoring or assisting". But as I said at the time, that isn't the job. The job is to be able to make the ball go from our defenders to attacking players without making too many dangerous mistakes in defensive midfield. Wieffer, Ayari etc, even Baleba, has shown that its really a lot more difficult than it looks.

I'm very hopeful Jack Hinshelwood could step into that role but we overplayed him again so he's injured again.
Not so sure we did (Hinshelwood) and that it would be the reason why he’s injured
 




Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,374
Its not optimal of course. In the best of worlds we sign a real midfielder to replace Alexis and that player would now have been in his second year with the club and perhaps grow into the league like Baleba has done (and will continue to do).

Unfortunately the Dahoud signing was a failure and we have a lag in our midfield build meaning some players (like Ayari) is getting a bigger role than optimal. Hopefully it makes him a top player next season. Right now he isn't, though he's been fine overall.

We tried to compensate for this issue through playing Milner in the first few games and it worked well, his experience did a lot for the coherency of our team. Unfortunately he is too old to keep fit enough for PL ball so we've had to be more urgent in playing our inexperienced players. With mixed results.
Ayari hasn't been fine overall.
His set piece delivery is awful. He is lightweight and gets closed down. Overplays all the time. Cannot pass accurately. Constantly makes wrong decisions. Shoots leaning backwards.
Isn't and never will be anywhere good enough for this level. Championship player at very best. Needs loaning out again.
 


Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,937
Not so sure we did (Hinshelwood) and that it would be the reason why he’s injured
Maybe not but last season we started him game after game and he suffered a VERY typical "overplaying" injury (stress fracture).

He gets back and what do we do? Play him every week. Plus the England U21s.

Ok, not sure if his current injury is related to overplaying but either which way we have been gambling with his health... again.
 


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