[Albion] Baleba's second yellow

Han Solo · Monday at 7:38 PM

Triggaaar said:
No of course that doesn't happen. If you get a bunch of owners and fans who feel as you'd hope, they simply don't win the trophies, and other teams do. The owners pay their players to win, while the refs are paid to do their best to get decisions right. You've already said they do that, and now you're changing it to suggest they don't actually care about the rules etc

Well you're still watching, and this is nothing new.

Basically the sport is dead then.

Football clubs, managers, players and fans don't care if the game is watchable or playable, they only care if they win. And winning, if you're correct, can only be done through cheating.

So everyone wants to be able to cheat the referee and win. And when they lose they accuse the referee of buying into the cheats of the other cheater rather than their own cheats. Apparently to you and others this isn't problematic: the refs are the problems.

So you, or at least others, go to childrens game with the attitude "the refs are the problems" and blame the 14-year-old ref because their kids are shite at football and need help from the ref.<

Slowly a situation appears where youth leagues struggle to get referees. Without referees, there's no games. And if there's no games, kids will play other sports than the best and simplest sport in the world.

The mentality that "clubs can't help that they want to win more than they want to play football" and "and it is the fault of the refs if they don't manage to correctly punish or not punish the 22 guys who are trying to cheat them in every situation" is just not going to work. Its a disaster for football. I don't give a shit if I or you still watch it: the tragedy is that the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to.

And that ain't the f***ing refs fault, but yours and mine.

amexer · Monday at 7:48 PM

Biggest culprit is players who as they did here exagerate a situation to influence the ref. Only people to stop this is managers but will not happen.

Triggaaar · Monday at 8:01 PM

Han Solo said:
Basically the sport is dead then.

No more dead than it's been for 40 years, and you're still enjoying it.

Han Solo said:
Football clubs, managers, players and fans don't care if the game is watchable or playable, they only care if they win. And winning, if you're correct, can only be done through cheating.

It's not true that it can only be done by cheating, but cheating certainly helps. Did Spain win the Euros by cheating - no, they played the best football. But some games do get decided by gamesmanship, so it's in the game.

As fans, we'd prefer it wasn't in the game, but we don't have the power to stop other clubs cheating. We can be against our club cheating, but if a club has a fanbase that is totally against their club doing what all other clubs do, then that club will keep getting relegated until no one remembers that club exists, and that won't change the game.

Han Solo said:
So everyone wants to be able to cheat the referee and win. And when they lose they accuse the referee of buying into the cheats of the other cheater rather than their own cheats.

You're familiar with this forum, and we're often a bit embarrassed when one of our players dives. We don't like the ref falling for any cheating.

Han Solo said:
Apparently to you and others this isn't problematic: the refs are the problems.

We know that players cheating is problem, but as I've explained, we can't fix it. Refereeing is a really hard job. I've not tried it, but I'm fairly confident I wouldn't be good at it. But that doesn't mean we can't strive to improve it. Referees in this country do tend to favour the big clubs, presumably due to an unconscious bias. I'm actually more disappointed with the ability of refs to use VAR - I think I could probably do a better job than several of them.

Han Solo said:
So you, or at least others, go to childrens game with the attitude "the refs are the problems" and blame the 14-year-old ref because their kids are shite at football and need help from the ref.<

Not me, and this is a separate problem than the one we're discussing.

Han Solo said:
The mentality that "clubs can't help that they want to win more than they want to play football" and "and it is the fault of the refs if they don't manage to correctly punish or not punish the 22 guys who are trying to cheat them in every situation" is just not going to work. Its a disaster for football. I don't give a shit if I or you still watch it: the tragedy is that the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to.

The evidence is that you're wrong, because millions of kids around the world still play it, without these controlled environments you talk of.

Han Solo · Monday at 8:26 PM

Triggaaar said:
No more dead than it's been for 40 years, and you're still enjoying it.

It's not true that it can only be done by cheating, but cheating certainly helps. Did Spain win the Euros by cheating - no, they played the best football. But some games do get decided by gamesmanship, so it's in the game.

As fans, we'd prefer it wasn't in the game, but we don't have the power to stop other clubs cheating. We can be against our club cheating, but if a club has a fanbase that is totally against their club doing what all other clubs do, then that club will keep getting relegated until no one remembers that club exists, and that won't change the game.

You're familiar with this forum, and we're often a bit embarrassed when one of our players dives. We don't like the ref falling for any cheating.

We know that players cheating is problem, but as I've explained, we can't fix it. Refereeing is a really hard job. I've not tried it, but I'm fairly confident I wouldn't be good at it. But that doesn't mean we can't strive to improve it. Referees in this country do tend to favour the big clubs, presumably due to an unconscious bias. I'm actually more disappointed with the ability of refs to use VAR - I think I could probably do a better job than several of them.

Not me, and this is a separate problem than the one we're discussing.

The evidence is that you're wrong, because millions of kids around the world still play it, without these controlled environments you talk of.

1. Maybe not over there. Here it is definitely more dead than 40 years ago when sports clubs were that natural meeting place in every little town or village. Now the kids appear to not really like the sport so they quit at 14-15 when they realise they're not to be millionaires. Sure, Allsvenskan has grown from abysmal attendances in the 1980s, which is good, but in rural Sweden its dead. And I think a lot of it comes down to the result obsession that also inflates the ref obsession.

2. Yes, cheating helps in most circumstances, but people have a responsibility towards society. Except footballers apparently, they can't help themselves from cheating so society need to be responsible towards footballers instead. I'd gain a lot more tosh going out there to rob old ladies but I don't, and if I did I would expect people to be fuming about if regardless if the police found out or not. But apparently footballers and football clubs are allowed to operate without taking any responsibility for what they're doing. And customers like you will be riding in on your white horse to protect these young mercenary brats who will shit on you at the first time possible. All very dysfunctional at every fecking level.

3. Yes I'm familiar with the forum and we absolutely f***ing love "dark arts" and "game management" just like the 19 other clubs.

4. If we can't fix it then maybe every f***ing human out there should be castrated. If NO ONE is able to breed and raise kids without the kid growing up to be a pathological liar and cheater, than maybe we should say "f*** humanity" and just nuke the shit out of ourselves.

I think your defeatist attitude is wrong though. Cultures can change, and culture is what its about. Its not normal or intrinsic human behaviour to be cheating in every single situation to get advantages. The mentality among footballers and football fans, "its part of the game yadda yadda" is some sort of inbred self-fulfilling bollocks because that attitude gets you thrown out of most sports and competitions, head first.

5. No, its not a different or seperate problem because its the obsession with the refs (or their alleged lack of quality) that causes this, and this thread is obsessing with the refs.

6. "The evidence is that you're wrong, because millions of kids around the world still play it, without these controlled environments you talk of."... right, so that means there's no issues with the climate because right now its pretty gold? And there's no evidence that cancer is lethal because there's still many people alive?

Triggaaar · Monday at 10:13 PM

Han Solo said:
1. Maybe not over there. Here it is definitely more dead than 40 years ago when sports clubs were that natural meeting place in every little town or village. Now the kids appear to not really like the sport so they quit at 14-15 when they realise they're not to be millionaires. Sure, Allsvenskan has grown from abysmal attendances in the 1980s, which is good, but in rural Sweden its dead. And I think a lot of it comes down to the result obsession that also inflates the ref obsession.

I doubt that's to do with the gamesmanship.

Han Solo said:
2. Yes, cheating helps in most circumstances, but people have a responsibility towards society. Except footballers apparently, they can't help themselves from cheating so society need to be responsible towards footballers instead. I'd gain a lot more tosh going out there to rob old ladies but I don't, and if I did I would expect people to be fuming about if regardless if the police found out or not. But apparently footballers and football clubs are allowed to operate without taking any responsibility for what they're doing. And customers like you will be riding in on your white horse to protect these young mercenary brats who will shit on you at the first time possible. All very dysfunctional at every fecking level.

I'm not protecting them, I'm simply pointing out that you can't change it by moaning. I would support the leagues being able to retrospectively ban players for diving, but there'll still be a lot of cheating (like Villa players taking it in turns to fake a head injury when they're 1 up).

Han Solo said:
3. Yes I'm familiar with the forum and we absolutely f***ing love "dark arts" and "game management" just like the 19 other clubs.

We don't like diving though.

Han Solo said:
4. If we can't fix it then maybe every f***ing human out there should be castrated. If NO ONE is able to breed and raise kids without the kid growing up to be a pathological liar and cheater, than maybe we should say "f*** humanity" and just nuke the shit out of ourselves.

Han Solo said:
I think your defeatist attitude is wrong though. Cultures can change, and culture is what its about.

But you're not talking about one culture, you're talking about many around the world. Fair play is more important in British culture than most, but we've been going against the grain for decades.

Han Solo said:
Its not normal or intrinsic human behaviour to be cheating in every single situation to get advantages.

Sadly I think it's pretty common in all animal behaviour.

Han Solo said:
5. No, its not a different or seperate problem because its the obsession with the refs (or their alleged lack of quality) that causes this, and this thread is obsessing with the refs.

People here think the standard of refs should be improved. You seem to disagree with most people, which is fine, but you are in the minority.

Han Solo said:
6. "The evidence is that you're wrong, because millions of kids around the world still play it, without these controlled environments you talk of."... right, so that means there's no issues with the climate because right now its pretty gold? And there's no evidence that cancer is lethal because there's still many people alive?

No, you said that "the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to". That's clearly incorrect. Pointing out that your statement is incorrect is not the same as saying everything is gold. Quite where you get your nonsense cancer analogy I don't know.

Han Solo · Monday at 10:29 PM

Triggaaar said:
I doubt that's to do with the gamesmanship.

I'm not protecting them, I'm simply pointing out that you can't change it by moaning. I would support the leagues being able to retrospectively ban players for diving, but there'll still be a lot of cheating (like Villa players taking it in turns to fake a head injury when they're 1 up).

We don't like diving though.

But you're not talking about one culture, you're talking about many around the world. Fair play is more important in British culture than most, but we've been going against the grain for decades.

Sadly I think it's pretty common in all animal behaviour.

People here think the standard of refs should be improved. You seem to disagree with most people, which is fine, but you are in the minority.

No, you said that "the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to". That's clearly incorrect. Pointing out that your statement is incorrect is not the same as saying everything is gold. Quite where you get your nonsense cancer analogy I don't know.

I mean fair play may be ingrained in British culture, no doubt about that, but Premier League isn't British culture, its some sort of Saudi-American tv show littered with mercenary actors.

Improving the referees isn't going to help as long as 22 people try to cheat them for 90 minutes. The refs will continue to have two eyes and the limitations of human eyesight. Doesn't matter how many pushups they do, not everything will be seen, not everything will be seen correctly. Think its more important to raise the standards of the clubs, managers, players and media instead of spending another 150 years asking why refs aren't perfect when everything else apparently is.

Yes, the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to. There's nothing clearly incorrect about my statement about the future of football. What it looks like right now has nothing to do with how I predict football "will be".

Triggaaar · Monday at 10:43 PM

Han Solo said:
I mean fair play may be ingrained in British culture, no doubt about that, but Premier League isn't British culture, its some sort of Saudi-American tv show littered with mercenary actors.

I completely agree that the PL is no longer traditional British football. For years and years we got fed up with opposition countries diving and cheating but getting the decisions against us. It was soul destroying, so we accepted that if you can't beat them, join them. I think the rest of British society is still pretty fair minded, but we've accepted that you can't eradicate gamesmanship from football. We'd like refs to book more of the Villa/Fulham players for time-wasting etc, so there's room for improvement, but we know it won't be perfect.

Han Solo said:
Improving the referees isn't going to help as long as 22 people try to cheat them for 90 minutes.

Of course it will. Those players are still trying to cheat when Michael Oliver is ref, but he's just better at the job. If other refs become better, that's good news.

Han Solo said:
The refs will continue to have two eyes and the limitations of human eyesight. Doesn't matter how many pushups they do, not everything will be seen, not everything will be seen correctly.

And the likes of Oliver will get things wrong too, but we know he's getting more right than other refs. We lose plenty of games without it being the refs fault, and we've won the last two games but slagged off the refs because they've been poor. We're not just moaning when we lose, quite the opposite.

Han Solo said:
Think its more important to raise the standards of the clubs, managers, players and media instead of spending another 150 years asking why refs aren't perfect when everything else apparently is.

Stop making things up. We know not everything is perfect. Is it possible to improve refereeing? Yes, I think it is, and I think it will get better. There needs to be less of an 'us against them' attitude between clubs and refs. Refs need to be honest, and not try and defend each other regardless.

But I don't think you can raise the standards (from a cheating perspective) of clubs, managers, players, and media. There's no incentive for them to improve.

Han Solo said:
Yes, the game will be unavailable to kids except for in very controlled environments that only the best and richest kids will be able to get to. There's nothing clearly incorrect about my statement about the future of football. What it looks like right now has nothing to do with how I predict football "will be".

Yes it does, because you're saying it 'will be' like that because of the cheating, but the cheating has existed longer than you've been alive and it hasn't stopped kids playing football in the park. I'm sorry Solo, you're just talking nonsense. Kids around the world kick a ball about together, they don't need refs of controlled environments.

Couldn't Be Hyypia · Monday at 11:05 PM

Pops in.

Sees a thread ruined by squabbling with Hans Solo (who is just an attention seeker).

Pops out again.

Han Solo · Monday at 11:24 PM

Triggaaar said:
I completely agree that the PL is no longer traditional British football. For years and years we got fed up with opposition countries diving and cheating but getting the decisions against us. It was soul destroying, so we accepted that if you can't beat them, join them. I think the rest of British society is still pretty fair minded, but we've accepted that you can't eradicate gamesmanship from football. We'd like refs to book more of the Villa/Fulham players for time-wasting etc, so there's room for improvement, but we know it won't be perfect.

Of course it will. Those players are still trying to cheat when Michael Oliver is ref, but he's just better at the job. If other refs become better, that's good news.

And the likes of Oliver will get things wrong too, but we know he's getting more right than other refs. We lose plenty of games without it being the refs fault, and we've won the last two games but slagged off the refs because they've been poor. We're not just moaning when we lose, quite the opposite.

Stop making things up. We know not everything is perfect. Is it possible to improve refereeing? Yes, I think it is, and I think it will get better. There needs to be less of an 'us against them' attitude between clubs and refs. Refs need to be honest, and not try and defend each other regardless.

But I don't think you can raise the standards (from a cheating perspective) of clubs, managers, players, and media. There's no incentive for them to improve.

Yes it does, because you're saying it 'will be' like that because of the cheating, but the cheating has existed longer than you've been alive and it hasn't stopped kids playing football in the park. I'm sorry Solo, you're just talking nonsense. Kids around the world kick a ball about together, they don't need refs of controlled environments.

Counter-accept it then and push football closer to traditional British values. FORCE it, because its not going to happen organically.

Like I've said before, ban any player or manager making comments about refs, and then have them ref youth teams for a month until they understand the job + compensated for the youth refs they f***ed over with their comments. Its easier said than done when many of the players comes from environments where they either turn into good footballers or impoverished nobodys, but the idea of sportsmanship needs to be forced back into the game.

Michael Oliver gets a bag of shit every week (particularly because of his Arab side gig, but also otherwise) so clearly it helps very little to be a great ref. As we've seen in World Cups and other international/continental, there will still be bad decisions and scandals even if you pick the supposedly best lot of refs around.

Refs don't need to be honest, people would never ever accept that. Imagine a ref saying "Jörgen Klopp is a ****" and the reaction that would have.
As long as we (managers, players, media and fans) collectively attack refs, they will be unnecessarily loyal to each other in order to... live. Its very difficult doing a job when EVERYONE, including your colleagues, wants to shit on you.

If there's no incentive for those you mention to improve, what is the incentive for refs to improve? Since none of those you mention want to take any responsibility, people will just keep blaming the refs for the 90 minute cheatfests that no one wants to change or improve. Clearly they don't want better refereeing if all their excuses and ways of winning includes alleged poor refereeing.

Very good for you that football is running great wherever you live. In the rest of the world, including large parts of the UK, it is increasingly difficult to find referees willing to take the required amount of shit from adults who has been inspired by the increasing levels of ref obsession.

Couldn't Be Hyypia said:
Pops in.

Sees a thread ruined by squabbling with Hans Solo (who is just an attention seeker).

Pops out again.

Yeah sorry I destroyed this exceptionally interesting thread through discussing things with another lad.

Triggaaar · 2024-11-26T08:47:00+0000

Han Solo said:
Counter-accept it then and push football closer to traditional British values. FORCE it, because its not going to happen organically.

Like I've said before, ban any player or manager making comments about refs, and then have them ref youth teams for a month until they understand the job + compensated for the youth refs they f***ed over with their comments.

I'm in favour of adding punishments that encourage fair play. It won't completely eradicate it though, because some things can't be proven (like when a player pretends the challenge was very hurty).

Han Solo said:
As we've seen in World Cups and other international/continental, there will still be bad decisions and scandals even if you pick the supposedly best lot of refs around.

We know there will always be mistakes. A lot of us simply feel that there are currently too many, and that there's often an element of bias to it.

Han Solo said:
Refs don't need to be honest, people would never ever accept that. Imagine a ref saying "Jörgen Klopp is a ****" and the reaction that would have.
As long as we (managers, players, media and fans) collectively attack refs, they will be unnecessarily loyal to each other in order to... live. Its very difficult doing a job when EVERYONE, including your colleagues, wants to shit on you.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I agree that refs should support each other, but as you say we all know that refereeing mistakes will be made, so VAR refs should not consider correcting a colleagues mistake as a criticism of the ref (ala Mike Dean), they should simply see it that they're a team working together to get to the right decision. That was the issue.

Han Solo said:
If there's no incentive for those you mention to improve, what is the incentive for refs to improve? Since none of those you mention want to take any responsibility, people will just keep blaming the refs for the 90 minute cheatfests that no one wants to change or improve. Clearly they don't want better refereeing if all their excuses and ways of winning includes alleged poor refereeing.

Generally people do want better refereeing. Howard Webb agrees with this. The incentive for refs to improve is that they're paid to try and get the decisions right (whereas players are paid to win).

Han Solo said:
Very good for you that football is running great wherever you live. In the rest of the world, including large parts of the UK, it is increasingly difficult to find referees willing to take the required amount of shit from adults who has been inspired by the increasing levels of ref obsession.

I don't disagree with you on the difficulty of finding refs who have to deal with crap from kids dads etc, I was simply talking about kids wanting to kick the ball around a park/beach.

tedebear · 2024-11-26T09:04:52+0000

Couldn't Be Hyypia said:
Pops in.

Sees a thread ruined by squabbling with Hans Solo (who is just an attention seeker).

Pops out again.

Indeed! A couple of those around these parts recently!

The Wizard · 2024-11-26T09:11:03+0000

I can see why Atwell gave it at first glance, I know it’s not comparable but from the stand I did think it was a foul and a bit rash from Carlos, it’s one of those where a simple message from VAR to say there was no contact would get rid of all the controversy.

They create a rod for their own back by saying second yellows can’t be looked at, it’s a game changing and sometimes defining decision, all second yellows should be looked at by VAR.

Taybha · 2024-11-26T10:25:03+0000

The future of football is that VAR would rule this out for high boot

thedonkeycentrehalf · 2024-11-26T10:28:20+0000

Couldn't Be Hyypia said:
Pops in.

Sees a thread ruined by squabbling with Hans Solo (who is just an attention seeker).

Pops out again.

I have the Swedish tw@t on ignore but it still makes it harder to read the views of others. Hopefully he will get himself banned again soon and then we can get rid of him once and for all.

Kalimantan Gull · 2024-11-26T10:28:24+0000

Seagull58 said:
Pedro was also smashed into just before Attwell imagined Baleba's foul for the second yellow.

Which I actually think was critical in the decision. Pedro was smashed into by Lewis Cook, who was the subject of Baleba's late challenge, even if there was virtually no contact. I reckon Atwell reckoned it was a deliberate retribution challenge from Baleba and acted accordingly.

Machiavelli · 2024-11-26T10:30:02+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Which I actually think was critical in the decision. Pedro was smashed into by Lewis Cook, who was the subject of Baleba's late challenge, even if there was virtually no contact. I reckon Atwell reckoned it was a deliberate retribution challenge from Baleba and acted accordingly.

Kerkez wasn't it?

Kalimantan Gull · 2024-11-26T10:34:38+0000

Machiavelli said:
Kerkez wasn't it?

Could be, I took a stab at it being Cook

It was the same guy in both challenges anyway

Machiavelli · 2024-11-26T10:35:01+0000

The Wizard said:
I can see why Atwell gave it at first glance, I know it’s not comparable but from the stand I did think it was a foul and a bit rash from Carlos, it’s one of those where a simple message from VAR to say there was no contact would get rid of all the controversy.

They create a rod for their own back by saying second yellows can’t be looked at, it’s a game changing and sometimes defining decision, all second yellows should be looked at by VAR.

Not even sure VAR is necessary for that. The issue with VAR is not to extend its reach (although checking second yellows might be a valid extension). There was both an 'Assistant Referee' and a 'Fourth Official' who had a very different and closer view of things, and could have advised Atwell that there was no contact. This does raise the question as to whether each match referee will take advise from the other match officials.

I was also in the stand and agree that it looked rash from there -- which just goes to show that perspective provides a limited viewpoint of events.

Cheeky Monkey · 2024-11-26T10:49:54+0000

tedebear said:
Indeed! A couple of those around these parts recently!

And yet all the 'non attention seekers' feel the need to post about it!
:lolol:

tedebear · 2024-11-26T10:53:22+0000

Cheeky Monkey said:
And yet all the 'non attention seekers' feel the need to post about it!

as you are...

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[Albion] Baleba's second yellow

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