[Albion] Just how good is Hürzeler?

jackanada · Monday at 5:27 PM

<<possibly vain attempt to get OT>>

Parsing various Hürzeler quotes and interviews a key part of his attacking philosophy is empowering the players to find their own solutions.
This is WAY outside the systemised direction of football over the last decade and the near algorithmic tenets of dezerbian ball progression.
Add in the focus on quick attacking when possession is regained and the lack of control we've often exhibited was probably inevitable.
Will it improve? We've seen enough glimpses to expect that is probable. We certainly get the message that we need to do better often enough from Fabian.
Meanwhile we've made a record start, though admittedly one outperforming our xP, we've had at least our share of injuries, we've had a relatively tough start in terms of fixtures and we've been bedding in players from other leagues.
So in short, yeah he's probably pretty damn good. Also he appears to know he needs to get better and is relishing it (ok that I'm getting entirely from a little smile he had while talking about the challenges of the PL on MOTD)

nickbrighton · Monday at 5:33 PM

Han Solo said:
Thats your way of seeing football. I don't agree with it and don't think its a successful way of operating.
If we were only to look at goals and points, we'd get rid of the players who lost many games and replace them with people who won many games.

If we were more interested in the results and goals scored by Carlos Baleba last season, rather than the other metrics showing his development, we'd have shipped him this summer along with a bunch of our other most talented players. Stats and goals from last season says Will Hughes is a better player than Carlos, so maybe thats who we should have gone for?

xG, xPoints and thousand other non-goal non-point metrics often provide relevant information, including about where we might finish at the end of the season. The importance of these stats are why Tony Bloom is running a data analysis company called Starlizard with 301 employees rather than having a single lad sitting around counting our goals and points with pen-and-paper.

I now think you have lost the plot. You dont think scoring goals and winning is a good way of operating and looking at how well the team is doing?

Of course the club, and coaches will be keeping tabs on all sorts of metrics to see how the players are doing, but thats not what your point was. You said Huerzeler was the worst (or among the worst ) manager in the league, despite league position, games won, etc .potentially second on Friday , after a third of the season has gone isnt a good way of seeing how the club are doing? Its not the only way of course, but to dismiss the position of the club, and games won, in favour of SUBJECTIVE stats seems total lunacy.
We are entitled to our differing opinions , so Im good with yours, however "different" it is to mine. I hope(but dont expect) that you will enjoy seeing us win many more games as that doesnt seem to be why you watch them

deletebeepbeepbeep · Monday at 5:48 PM

I like how Hurzeler is respectful of other teams and admits when we were second best. His thoughts on the challenge each team might cause tend to be insightful rather than just a bland response about how every team is tough.

Makes his pre match press conferences worth listening to for the moment.

'Trust the process' is starting to get a bit grating though.

Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo · Monday at 5:53 PM

Han Solo said:
Thats your way of seeing football. I don't agree with it and don't think its a successful way of operating.
If we were only to look at goals and points, we'd get rid of the players who lost many games and replace them with people who won many games.

At the end of the day that is what matters even to Tony Bloom. He may use data etc to help us get there, but the fact its widely known last seasons bonuses were based on us finishing in the top 10. (and yes i know he actually paid out those bonuses despite us finishing 11th because he also took into account what he considered a successful first season in European competition).

That means he values points and goals over all else. He isn't paying out bonuses based on our xG, touches in the opponeants penalty area or passes in the final third. Yes he uses data try and maximise our return but Fabian Huzeler isn't being hauled over the coals this morning by Barber and Bloom because our xG is only mid-table.

Han Solo · Monday at 5:56 PM

nickbrighton said:
I now think you have lost the plot. You dont think scoring goals and winning is a good way of operating and looking at how well the team is doing?

Of course the club, and coaches will be keeping tabs on all sorts of metrics to see how the players are doing, but thats not what your point was. You said Huerzeler was the worst (or among the worst ) manager in the league, despite league position, games won, etc .potentially second on Friday , after a third of the season has gone isnt a good way of seeing how the club are doing? Its not the only way of course, but to dismiss the position of the club, and games won, in favour of SUBJECTIVE stats seems total lunacy.
We are entitled to our differing opinions , so Im good with yours, however "different" it is to mine. I hope(but dont expect) that you will enjoy seeing us win many more games as that doesnt seem to be why you watch them

I've not lost the plot, I'm just capable of having multiple separate thoughts:

1. We're doing fantastically well, and so is our manager, with great results so far.
2. We're creating too few chances and conceding too many to sustain our current results.
3. Points and goals are important.
4. Information that leads to points and goals is equally if not more important.

We're 5th because we're the top 1 best club, not because any of our managers or players are top 5 (LB aside). Its a coherently and wisely built team with a talented manager and talented players. As a unit we're 5th. Individually I believe that most of our players as well as our manager learn things every day.

Nothing is objective, nothing is for certain, but realistically speaking Hurzeler knows less about football and football coaching than most of his colleagues that have been around in the profession for 10-20 years longer. He has more to learn than most others. Hopefully he sees it that way and doesn't buy into the "he's all that!" vibe that comes when we win and goes when we lose.

Jimmy Grimble · Monday at 6:04 PM

Han Solo said:
I've not lost the plot, I'm just capable of having multiple separate thoughts:

1. We're doing fantastically well, and so is our manager, with great results so far.
2. We're creating too few chances and conceding too many to sustain our current results.
3. Points and goals are important.
4. Information that leads to points and goals is equally if not more important.

We're 5th because we're the top 1 best club, not because any of our managers or players are top 5 (LB aside). Its a coherently and wisely built team with a talented manager and talented players. As a unit we're 5th. Individually I believe that most of our players as well as our manager learn things every day.

Nothing is objective, nothing is for certain, but realistically speaking Hurzeler knows less about football and football coaching than most of his colleagues that have been around in the profession for 10-20 years longer. He has more to learn than most others. Hopefully he sees it that way and doesn't buy into the "he's all that!" vibe that comes when we win and goes when we lose.

Out of interest, which other metrics (apart from xG which I do agree is valuable) are you going by?

Han Solo · Monday at 6:13 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo said:
At the end of the day that is what matters even to Tony Bloom. He may use data etc to help us get there, but the fact its widely known last seasons bonuses were based on us finishing in the top 10. (and yes i know he actually paid out those bonuses despite us finishing 11th because he also took into account what he considered a successful first season in European competition).

That means he values points and goals over all else. He isn't paying out bonuses based on our xG, touches in the opponeants penalty area or passes in the final third. Yes he uses data try and maximise our return but Fabian Huzeler isn't being hauled over the coals this morning by Barber and Bloom because our xG is only mid-table.

"He may use data" - what do you need in order to get it confirmed? Pretty sure there's some interviews and stuff out there.

Ok, so he's not paying bonuses based on xG or touches in the opposition penalty area, but he is paying our players £40-100k a week because of those things.

If "at the end of the day that is what matters to Tony Bloom" is actually true, we're buying Adam Armstrong - he scored many GOALS in a team that WON alot - rather than Rutter - as he scored fewer goals in a team that won less. We wouldn't have loaned out Murray to bring in Welbeck. Van Hecke and Ayari comes nowhere near our team because they didn't score goals or win games with Blackburn. And the list goes on virtually forever.

If goals and points was the main thing for Tony, this club would look VERY different to how it does now. It would look a lot like any dumb Championship club.

PILTDOWN MAN · Monday at 6:30 PM

Han Solo said:
Nothing is objective, nothing is for certain, but realistically speaking Hurzeler knows less about football and football coaching than most of his colleagues that have been around in the profession for 10-20 years longer. He has more to learn than most others. Hopefully he sees it that way and doesn't buy into the "he's all that!" vibe that comes when we win and goes when we lose.

That alone is complete and utter crap. Most of his colleagues, really? The vast majority will never get close to coaching a team 5th in the EPL. He's there for a reason, he shines above most of them.

Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo · Monday at 6:32 PM

Han Solo said:
"He may use data" - what do you need in order to get it confirmed? Pretty sure there's some interviews and stuff out there.

Ok, so he's not paying bonuses based on xG or touches in the opposition penalty area, but he is paying our players £40-100k a week because of those things.

If "at the end of the day that is what matters to Tony Bloom" is actually true, we're buying Adam Armstrong - he scored many GOALS in a team that WON alot - rather than Rutter - as he scored fewer goals in a team that won less. We wouldn't have loaned out Murray to bring in Welbeck. Van Hecke and Ayari comes nowhere near our team because they didn't score goals or win games with Blackburn. And the list goes on virtually forever.

If goals and points was the main thing for Tony, this club would look VERY different to how it does now. It would look a lot like any dumb Championship club.

Of course points, goals and league position matter most to him. He uses the data to maximise our chances of getting the most points, goals and highest league position we can but at the end of the day the more points we get the more money we get from the Premier League gravy train and the more chance we have of kicking on again and finishing even higher up the table (and ultimately becoming a sustainable football club).

Using arguments like if all that mattered was points and goals we'd be signing Adam Armstrong is absolute nonsense because it quite clearly ignores the fact that I say he uses data to maximise our chances and that signing the likes of Adam Armstrong would reduce our chances of getting more points.

Everything Tony Bloom does is with one goal in mind, giving Brighton and Hove Albion the best chance of finishing as high up the Premier League as possible, which means the ultimate target is points and you need goals to get points. They are the metrics that matter most at the end of the day, the data is just a tool, one of many, that contributes to the overall aim.

Han Solo · Monday at 6:49 PM

Jimmy Grimble said:
Out of interest, which other metrics (apart from xG which I do agree is valuable) are you going by?

A bit of everything.

Particularly abnormalities likely to be "normalised" over the course of a season. Things like Barts save ratio compared to the kind of chances we concede and the distance we let them shoot. If he can keep a 75% save percentage while we continue to be the most generous team in letting the opponents create through ball chances.. its nothing short of a miracle.

Many small things and they add up. At the end of the season there will still be statistical abnormalities of course, but most of them will have evened out and turned into "ok, makes sense". In our case there are lots and lots of those small things saying "our results are better than our performances", and thats rarely keeping up for 38 games.

Triggaaar · Monday at 6:54 PM

Han Solo said:
Probably one of the worst managers in the league though (tough competition)

Han Solo said:
But he is learning very rapidly and in a year or two there will be none better.

So he's one of the worst, but will be the best in a year or two?

You need rehab.

Pliny the Gull · Monday at 7:00 PM

Han Solo said:
A bit of everything.

Particularly abnormalities likely to be "normalised" over the course of a season. Things like Barts save ratio compared to the kind of chances we concede and the distance we let them shoot. If he can keep a 75% save percentage while we continue to be the most generous team in letting the opponents create through ball chances.. its nothing short of a miracle.

Many small things and they add up. At the end of the season there will still be statistical abnormalities of course, but most of them will have evened out and turned into "ok, makes sense". In our case there are lots and lots of those small things saying "our results are better than our performances", and thats rarely keeping up for 38 games.

I'll take J Pedro's assist To Mitomas outrageous pass into the net thanks UTA

Sid and the Sharknados · Monday at 7:03 PM

I have to admire the ability to write, essentially:

Hurzeler is a talented young coach but he still has a lot to learn,
Our position in the table is better than many of our performances and statistics would suggest,

In such a way as to produce OUTRAGE. :lolol:

Triggaaar · Monday at 7:06 PM

Han Solo said:
Recent example is the City game where we went out playing scared and respectful football in the first half when we should have really just attacked them. Case of a young manager respecting Pep too much and not really grasping the mental state of that City side...

So you don't understand that players can also be overawed? A manager can do and say the right things, but his players may still lack confidence when playing against one of the best teams in the world. The players have said that Fab has been telling them to believe and that they can challenge the established teams (like City), and your takeaway from that is that the manager was respecting the opposition too much and didn't tell the players to believe :facepalm:

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · Monday at 7:09 PM

Quite astonishing that a guy can describe a manager who has got us 5th without being to rely on Pedro, O'Reilly, any sort of attacking right back, March and Gruda for most of the season as one of the 'worst in the league' because our xG could be better while we sit in 5th.

But then again this is the same bloke who couldn't wait to turn on the guy who watched things unfold when every wide player and most of our strikeforce were injured last year.

Very strange outlook.

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · Monday at 7:17 PM

Sid and the Sharknados said:
I have to admire the ability to write, essentially:

Hurzeler is a talented young coach but he still has a lot to learn,
Our position in the table is better than many of our performances and statistics would suggest,

In such a way as to produce OUTRAGE.

I think most people bar the really tinted spec crew would agree with that. The one of the worst managers in the league bit though is mental

Han Solo · Monday at 7:17 PM

Triggaaar said:
So he's one of the worst, but will be the best in a year or two?

You need rehab.

Yup. Said the same thing about Baleba about a year ago and seems to be working well without me going into rehab.

People develop. Even you would learn things from spending years in a world class environment like the PL.

Triggaaar said:
So you don't understand that players can also be overawed? A manager can do and say the right things, but his players may still lack confidence when playing against one of the best teams in the world. The players have said that Fab has been telling them to believe and that they can challenge the established teams (like City), and your takeaway from that is that the manager was respecting the opposition too much and didn't tell the players to believe

If players are "overawed" or "non-awed" or "too hot" or "too cold" when going into a game, a manager normally is seen as responsible for that.
But I guess we're doing a new round of Zerbism where everything good that happens is down to Hurz and everything bad down to the players? After all, Brighton & Hove Albion is the only football club I've ever experienced where the fans shrugged when the manager said "my players are not motivated".

Managers play a limited role (with the exception of real fuckups) but one of the main tasks is certainly to make sure the players feel motivated and comfortable when going on the pitch. If the players felt "overawed" about facing City, it is first and foremost the managers job to solve it.

Han Solo · Monday at 7:22 PM

Terry Butcher Tribute Act said:
I think most people bar the really tinted spec crew would agree with that. The one of the worst managers in the league bit though is mental

Could you provide me with a list of current Premier League managers who have achieved less than Hurzeler?
A list of managers likely to have less experience? Fewer lectures, less hours in the school bench, less hours in practice?

Why is it mental to believe that a rookie with 12 top flight games behind him is less knowledgeable, skilled and experienced than the plentiful who has been managing various teams at the top level for years and years?

Weststander · Monday at 7:31 PM

We’re in one of those rare Albion periods where everything‘s in place to win games of football by the bucketload, perhaps sometimes with ease. You rock up at games and almost expect a win. From a combination of great recruitment, squad strength in depth and a clever, adaptive coach. As a non-Preistfield lightweight, I don’t want to miss a game just now. Exciting times.

Hurzeler is very much part of that. I’d rather he was our coach than any of McKenna, Glasner, Dyche, Martin, Frank, Nuno. Style of football comes into it too. Not bothered that they have longer CV’s.

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · Monday at 7:37 PM

Han Solo said:
Could you provide me with a list of current Premier League managers who have achieved less than Hurzeler?
A list of managers likely to have less experience? Fewer lectures, less hours in the school bench, less hours in practice?

Why is it mental to believe that a rookie with 12 top flight games behind him is less knowledgeable, skilled and experienced than the plentiful who has been managing various teams at the top level for years and years?

You didn't say th

Han Solo said:
Could you provide me with a list of current Premier League managers who have achieved less than Hurzeler?
A list of managers likely to have less experience? Fewer lectures, less hours in the school bench, less hours in practice?

Why is it mental to believe that a rookie with 12 top flight games behind him is less knowledgeable, skilled and experienced than the plentiful who has been managing various teams at the top level for years and years?

"Probably one of the worst managers in the league though (tough competition) - we've made blunders, been naive and quite often struggled to change the games."

You're doubling down now you've realised how ridiculous that statement was. Of course there are more experienced managers in the league. Doesn't mean they are better though. Yeah, I accept he's not proved anything yet and some results have been a bit fortuitous, but it's been a very promising start.

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