[Albion] Baleba's second yellow

Jim in the West · Nov 25, 2024

Justice said:
I agree he does come across biased against us they shouldn’t have that last corner IMO the game had run out of time it was on 8 or 9 minutes by then. Lewis Cook amazingly never got booked either with at least four bad tackles. I’m quite sure when they scored Pedro had been fouled earlier in the build up.

Lewis Cook was also guilty of an almost unbelievable attempt to gain a penalty in the first half (right in front of us). Fortunately Attwell didn't fall for it. It was rather satisfying to see Cook and Semenyo getting more and more wound up (notably by Veltman) as the game progressed.

Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo · Nov 25, 2024

American Seagle said:
What is the reason for not being able to appeal a red card from two yellows? Doesn't this mean that referees would stop b giving straight reds and give two yellows instead to avoid any potential appeals? What is stopping that from happening?

The general rational behind not being able to appeal a two yellow cards dismissal is there are two separate incidents that led to the sending off and you cannot appeal a single yellow card (except for mistaken identity) so you cannot appeal in the case of two yellows being awarded. Whether that is the right course of action to take is open to debate but that is how it is approached at the moment.

Two yellow cards means only a one game ban (with extra games if it’s the second/third time a player has been sent off that season).

Where as straight card can vary from 1 to 3 games depending on offence.

If a player is already on a yellow and commits a serious foul play the ref will still show the red card as it comes with the more serious punishment. So it makes no sense to issue a second yellow just because it can’t be appealed as you’d be giving a lesser punishment for a more serious incident.

Triggaaar · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
And so did ref mistakes, but apparently that can be solved because people demand it to be solved all the time.

I haven't seen anyone here suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes. I see people suggesting that the quality of refereeing in the PL should be improved.
Do you disagree with that? Do you think the PL has the best refereeing in world football?

Han Solo said:
Just too bad it is seen as impossible and against nature to promote fair play on the pitch. I'm not so sure its as impossible as people think.

Fair play is encouraged, but fans want their team to win, and getting the trophy is what people remember and care about, so owners want managers who win, so managers encourage cheating. How do you suggest that is changed?

Triggaaar · Nov 25, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Taking off my Brighton hat.....

Why on earth would you do that? You've disrespected the club, the forum, your fellow fans and your family. And you've disrespected yourself.

Put your f***ing hat back on.

Han Solo · Nov 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
I haven't seen anyone here suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes. I see people suggesting that the quality of refereeing in the PL should be improved.
Do you disagree with that? Do you think the PL has the best refereeing in world football?

Fair play is encouraged, but fans want their team to win, and getting the trophy is what people remember and care about, so owners want managers who win, so managers encourage cheating. How do you suggest that is changed?

I have seen a lot of people indirectly (through their rage at every single ref and every single bad call) suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes at all, yes.

Premier League probably has the best refs in the world yes. At least some of them. Very highly rated in European competitions and considering the obscene tempo in the modern PL, they do a tremendous job.

Improving quality is always good obviously but the refs are doing fine compared to the players who can't be touched without rolling around and crying.

Triggaaar · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
I have seen a lot of people indirectly (through their rage at every single ref and every single bad call) suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes at all, yes.

Please provide a quote for people suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes. I suspect you've misinterpreted posts.

Han Solo said:
Premier League probably has the best refs in the world yes. At least some of them. Very highly rated in European competitions and considering the obscene tempo in the modern PL, they do a tremendous job.

Blimey, I'm shocked you think that. We've had Michael Oliver do well both here and at international tournaments, but I'm struggling to think of other good English refs.

Han Solo said:
Improving quality is always good obviously but the refs are doing fine compared to the players who can't be touched without rolling around and crying.

You think the job of a player is to be honourable and stand strong when touched, but that's not what they're being asked to do by the people who pay their wages. You're being a bit naive.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
It was not a foul, but its a situation that certainly looks like a foul from various angles.

I think what happened was that viewing this very rapid incident from one single angle that may not have been optimal, he thought Baleba caught the opponent and gave him his second yellow card.

Or its all a conspiracy and all the refs are working hard to help big teams like Bournemouth. Dunno.

Either way we need refs who can see every incident from every angle (robots or AI), because clearly as a species we're psychologically and physically unable to accept mistakes, to the point where human referees has now run its course.

I agree!

But this means using VAR to check any substantive decision (by substantive I mean when the binary outcome such as offence vs no offence could result in a card; this additionally means checking every first yellow offence as well as every second, because 50% of all second yellow jeopardy is the result of a first yellow being falsely awarded).

I want that, but a majority appear to be against it for the reasons noted. Consider the disruption and scenes, etc.

There is another argument that anyone who has picked up a yellow should be careful not to pick up a second, or should be subbed off if they are a player who always has a foul in him.

Such as Baleba.

Perhaps I'll jog on now. Nowt left to say on the matter :lolol:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
Why on earth would you do that? You've disrespected the club, the forum, your fellow fans and your family. And you've disrespected yourself.

Put your f***ing hat back on.

Yes, dad.

Sorry, dad.

Han Solo · Nov 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
Please provide a quote for people suggesting that refs shouldn't make any mistakes. I suspect you've misinterpreted posts.

Blimey, I'm shocked you think that. We've had Michael Oliver do well both here and at international tournaments, but I'm struggling to think of other good English refs.

You think the job of a player is to be honourable and stand strong when touched, but that's not what they're being asked to do by the people who pay their wages. You're being a bit naive.

If you ask Allsvenskan fans where the worst refs are, they will say "Allsvenskan". Same goes for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Premier League... everyone always thinks they have the worst referees.

The job of the referee is to make calls based on the laws of the game and the information he has available (= what he sees & hears). They're doing what they're asked to do.

The job of the player is to play football.
When a ref makes a mistake because he misinformed himself or was misinformed by a player, he is doing his job. His job isn't to be right, its to make calls based on what he sees and hears.
When footballers roll around pretending to be injured, they're not doing their job. Their job isn't to roll around "winning advantages". Their job is to play football. Thats what people pay them to.

Imo.

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I agree!

But this means using VAR to check any substantive decision (by substantive I mean when the binary outcome such as offence vs no offence could result in a card; this additionally means checking every first yellow offence as well as every second, because 50% of all second yellow jeopardy is the result of a first yellow being falsely awarded).

I want that, but a majority appear to be against it for the reasons noted. Consider the disruption and scenes, etc.

There is another argument that anyone who has picked up a yellow should be careful not to pick up a second, or should be subbed off if they are a player who always has a foul in him.

Such as Baleba.

Perhaps I'll jog on now. Nowt left to say on the matter

Semi-automated stuff is always shit. You spend billions on building a spaceship and then you have a monkey flying it.

Obvious future for refereeing is that it will be 100% computerized. Players won't be that long after, such is the concept of ever rising standards - people won't accept humans f***ing up their entertainment.

Shropshire Seagull · Nov 25, 2024

Reminds me of cricket years ago - do you walk or wait for the umps finger if you know you've nicked off to the keeper?
Technology came along to improve (Snicko) umpire's decisions and now we have Ultra-edge which is nye-on fool proof.

Stopped the cheating ....

Ah, but maybe cricket has more honour (played by Gentlemen) than the footballers of this age?

Of course, a snick off the edge is way more binary than a tackle that some will see as a foul and others not.
:shrug:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
If you ask Allsvenskan fans where the worst refs are, they will say "Allsvenskan". Same goes for La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Premier League... everyone always thinks they have the worst referees.

The job of the referee is to make calls based on the laws of the game and the information he has available (= what he sees & hears). They're doing what they're asked to do.

The job of the player is to play football.
When a ref makes a mistake because he misinformed himself or was misinformed by a player, he is doing his job. His job isn't to be right, its to make calls based on what he sees and hears.
When footballers roll around pretending to be injured, they're not doing their job. Their job isn't to roll around "winning advantages". Their job is to play football. Thats what people pay them to.

Imo.

Semi-automated stuff is always shit. You spend billions on building a spaceship and then you have a monkey flying it.

Obvious future for refereeing is that it will be 100% computerized. Players won't be that long after, such is the concept of ever rising standards - people won't accept humans f***ing up their entertainment.

AI Addio!

(You may have to look that up)

Han Solo · Nov 25, 2024

Shropshire Seagull said:
Reminds me of cricket years ago - do you walk or wait for the umps finger if you know you've nicked off to the keeper?
Technology came along to improve (Snicko) umpire's decisions and now we have Ultra-edge which is nye-on fool proof.

Stopped the cheating ....

Ah, but maybe cricket has more honour (played by Gentlemen) than the footballers of this age?

Of course, a snick off the edge is way more binary than a tackle that some will see as a foul and others not.

Same in curling, not a lot of complaints about the refs there.
Almost as if sports where people spend 90% of the time standing around waiting for things to happen is easier to referee than high paces sports with a lot of flow.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 25, 2024

Shropshire Seagull said:
Reminds me of cricket years ago - do you walk or wait for the umps finger if you know you've nicked off to the keeper?
Technology came along to improve (Snicko) umpire's decisions and now we have Ultra-edge which is nye-on fool proof.

Stopped the cheating ....

Ah, but maybe cricket has more honour (played by Gentlemen) than the footballers of this age?

Of course, a snick off the edge is way more binary than a tackle that some will see as a foul and others not.

Is the right answer.

It is easy to act with virtue when there is zero scope of pulling a fast one.

Incidentally the boys on R5 were spot on last night about players faking a head injury. They should receive a long suspension

tedebear · Nov 25, 2024

As much as I hate it and I've said it on here before, we need to mike up referees and VAR, so everyone can hear and see the reasoning for certain decisions, still might not agree with them, but at least we'd know the reasoning...like in rugby. There needs to be more of a penalty for simulation / diving / cheating whatever you want to call it, and there needs to be clearer rules that VAR can step in anywhere, its like there will always be one on field and one off field ref. There needs to be no "we are going hard on diving this week", we just want the rules applied, consistently and where someone on field gets it wrong, we want VAR to correct it.

No one is ever going to agree on everything, thats a given. But its the inconsistency of referees and linespeople and diving of players that both drives me bonkers.

Triggaaar · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
The job of the referee is to make calls based on the laws of the game and the information he has available (= what he sees & hears). They're doing what they're asked to do.

Actually they're not always doing what they're asked to do. Mike Dean has stated that when he's in VAR he wants to back up his mates who are refereeing the game, he doesn't want to correct them.

Han Solo said:
The job of the player is to play football.
When a ref makes a mistake because he misinformed himself or was misinformed by a player, he is doing his job. His job isn't to be right, its to make calls based on what he sees and hears.

Do you seriously think we don't know that?

Han Solo said:
When footballers roll around pretending to be injured, they're not doing their job. Their job isn't to roll around "winning advantages". Their job is to play football. Thats what people pay them to.

Imo.

I wish you were right, but unfortunately you're wrong. Club bosses generally want their team to win, and if their players play act a bit, or win with a bit of cheating, they won't mind. At the end of the day, one team's name goes on a trophy and people don't care about why. Do you think Argentina fans care that Maradona cheated in '86? Do you think Maradona got disciplined by his boss?

Bodian · Nov 25, 2024

Milano said:
I do feel a bit for refs though, Kerkez acted like he'd broken his ankle, in reality I'm not sure Carlos even touched him? The cheating in the EPL is beyond bad now.

Han Solo said:
This is the key. The best way to improve refereeing in the Premier League is if 22 people stop trying to cheat him for 90 minutes.

Triggaaar said:
Players trying to cheat had existed long before the PL has. That can't be solved.

About time they started using their own provisions

No diving!

The FA has extended its powers to punish simulation retrospectively from 2016-17

www.thefa.com

"Should a charge of ‘Successful Deception of a Match Official’ be admitted or found proven, the Independent Regulatory Commission will have the power to rescind the caution or dismissal received by the opposing player as a result of the simulation if it chooses to do so."

Han Solo · Nov 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
I wish you were right, but unfortunately you're wrong. Club bosses generally want their team to win, and if their players play act a bit, or win with a bit of cheating, they won't mind. At the end of the day, one team's name goes on a trophy and people don't care about why. Do you think Argentina fans care that Maradona cheated in '86? Do you think Maradona got disciplined by his boss?

Exactly.

Clubs don't care about the laws of the game. Players don't care about the laws of the game. Fans don't care about the laws of the game. The only interesting thing is "win or lose".

Why are referees expected to care about the laws of the game, fair play and honest games when none of the participants give a shit? You'd imagine that the billionaires and millionaires owning or playing for these club could take just the SLIGHTEST f***ing bit of responsibility rather than leave it to the ref. You'd imagine that SOMEONE in professional football could say "hmm, maybe we should stop ruining football and blaming the referees". But that doesn't happen.

So instead we go and watch cheaters decade out and decade in while blaming the refs for not following the laws of the game. Moronic at best, the death of football (you know, the activity for kids) at worst.

LamieRobertson · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
Exactly.

Clubs don't care about the laws of the game. Players don't care about the laws of the game. Fans don't care about the laws of the game. The only interesting thing is "win or lose".

Why are referees expected to care about the laws of the game, fair play and honest games when none of the participants give a shit? You'd imagine that the billionaires and millionaires owning or playing for these club could take just the SLIGHTEST f***ing bit of responsibility rather than leave it to the ref. You'd imagine that SOMEONE in professional football could say "hmm, maybe we should stop ruining football and blaming the referees". But that doesn't happen.

So instead we go and watch cheaters decade out and decade in while blaming the refs for not following the laws of the game. Moronic at best, the death of football (you know, the activity for kids) at worst.

This is news to me

Sid and the Sharknados · Nov 25, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Is the right answer.

It is easy to act with virtue when there is zero scope of pulling a fast one.

There speaks somebody who doesn't spend any time watching the Australian Men's cricket team. :lolol:

Triggaaar · Nov 25, 2024

Han Solo said:
Exactly.

Clubs don't care about the laws of the game. Players don't care about the laws of the game. Fans don't care about the laws of the game. The only interesting thing is "win or lose".

Why are referees expected to care about the laws of the game, fair play and honest games when none of the participants give a shit? You'd imagine that the billionaires and millionaires owning or playing for these club could take just the SLIGHTEST f***ing bit of responsibility rather than leave it to the ref. You'd imagine that SOMEONE in professional football could say "hmm, maybe we should stop ruining football and blaming the referees". But that doesn't happen.

No of course that doesn't happen. If you get a bunch of owners and fans who feel as you'd hope, they simply don't win the trophies, and other teams do. The owners pay their players to win, while the refs are paid to do their best to get decisions right. You've already said they do that, and now you're changing it to suggest they don't actually care about the rules etc :shrug:

Han Solo said:
So instead we go and watch cheaters decade out and decade in while blaming the refs for not following the laws of the game. Moronic at best, the death of football (you know, the activity for kids) at worst.

Well you're still watching, and this is nothing new.

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