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[Politics] The Labour Government



A

abc

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
1,418
Half Time Pies said:
Not sure you can claim that 'the people' wont tolerate a socialist government, when a majority of people in this country have traditionally voted for left of centre parties.
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Are you sure? My understanding is the reverse. Over the last 40+ years every gov has been centre or centre right. Hence the domination by the Tories and Labour under Blair.

I’m also not convinced that many people voted for a centre left party this time, as opposed to voting a right wing (as opposed to a centre right) government out. Unless Labour understand this, they will struggle to take the people with them.
 




H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,593
Brighton
abc said:
Are you sure? My understanding is the reverse. Over the last 40+ years every gov has been centre or centre right. Hence the domination by the Tories and Labour under Blair.

I’m also not convinced that many people voted for a centre left party this time, as opposed to voting a right wing (as opposed to a centre right) government out. Unless Labour understand this, they will struggle to take the people with them.
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The government we return is due to our voting system but proportionally more people vote for left of centre parties such as labour, the liberal democrats and greens.
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,593
Brighton
It's interesting to hear people attack the Labour party for being anti-small business but this isn't a Labour thing, we've had decades of successive governments bringing in measures that stifle entrepreneurship. As a small business owner I have to be an expert in a whole raft of regulations such as data protection, taxation, employment law and workers rights, health and safety as well as all the regulations for the particular industry that I am in. The costs of non-compliance are huge and I need to employ expensive specialists to help me with it all, which adds to my long list of rising costs at a time when people are becoming more price sensitive, taxes have gone up, minimum wage has gone up every year, salary expectations are through the roof, rents and utilities have gone up...

Large companies/ corporations are OK as they benefit from economies of scale, and have whole departments dealing with compliance, but a lot of the time I feel like I am so bogged down with everything that I don't have time to actually focus on growing my business!

When you do try to grow you hit a brick wall with access to finance as the banking sector in this country is so risk adverse when it comes to small businesses that they need the government to guarantee their loans or they are not interested. It doesn't seem to matter what government we have, things just get worse for the small business owner!
 
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Rdodge30

Rdodge30

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2022
786
Half Time Pies said:
It's interesting to hear people attack the Labour party for being anti-small business but this isn't a Labour thing, we've had decades of successive governments bringing in measures that stifle entrepreneurship. As a small business owner I have to be an expert in a whole raft of regulations such as data protection, taxation, employment law and workers rights, health and safety as well as all the regulations for the particular industry that I am in. The costs of non-compliance are huge and I need to employ expensive specialists to help me with it all, which adds to my long list of rising costs at a time when people are becoming more price sensitive, taxes have gone up, minimum wage has gone up every year, salary expectations are through the roof, rents and utilities have gone up...

Large companies/ corporations are OK as they benefit from economies of scale, and have whole departments dealing with compliance, but a lot of the time I feel like I am so bogged down with everything that I don't have time to actually focus on growing my business!

When you do try to grow you hit a brick wall with access to finance as the banking sector in this country is so risk adverse when it comes to small businesses that they need the government to guarantee their loans or they are not interested. It doesn't seem to matter what government we have, things just get worse for the small business owner!
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I’m in a similar position and I agree to a certain extent with what you say but I feel this government will make those previous decisions look like nothing. I’m genuinely worried.

Just the minimum wage alone… previous 3 years it has gone up 59p, 92p and £1.02 and this government has certainly got a bee in its bonnet about wages and has already set out a marker for where it stands- added to that do we think they are likely to increase minimum wage by less than the Tories did having declared their intention to serve ‘working people’ ?

The low pay commission forecasts 66p (£12.10) other forecasts range from 38p (£11.82) to 95p (£12.39)
 


A

A mex eyecan

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2011
3,976
Rdodge30 said:
I’m in a similar position and I agree to a certain extent with what you say but I feel this government will make those previous decisions look like nothing. I’m genuinely worried.

Just the minimum wage alone… previous 3 years it has gone up 59p, 92p and £1.02 and this government has certainly got a bee in its bonnet about wages and has already set out a marker for where it stands- added to that do we think they are likely to increase minimum wage by less than the Tories did having declared their intention to serve ‘working people’ ?

The low pay commission forecasts 66p (£12.10) other forecasts range from 38p (£11.82) to 95p (£12.39)
Click to expand...
I am so glad that I got rid of my business a couple of years back.

It‘s not just the 66p increase though is it If they do put up NI by 2% the increase. It will go from minimum wage £11.44 plus employer NI @ 13.8% = £13.02 to £12.10 plus employer NI @ 15.8% = £14.01 which is around 7.6% increase onto the payroll.

Knowing how precarious many businesses are, many still trying to fight their way out of the covid financial impact as well as the damages of the lettuce, there must be many many small business owners who could see their companies fold, or maybe depending on their age just decide to throw the towel in.
 




Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,554
Back in Sussex
The "what is a working person?" stuff is a load of old nonsense but, like much of what has happened over the last few months, entirely seld-inflicted by a government that seems to have absolutely no idea about how to communicate effectively.

I've just searched through their manifesto and this is the sentence that I assume is at the heart of the debate: "Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

The problem is that some working people are involved in non-PAYE activities that can be subject to taxation. If taxes are increased on any of those activities, then Labour will have increased taxes on (some) working people. Whether they do or not, remains to be seen on Wednesday.

There are a whole load of ways they could have said what they probably intended to mean - no one is going to see more tax on their payslips - but didn't.
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,593
Brighton
A mex eyecan said:
I am so glad that I got rid of my business a couple of years back.

It‘s not just the 66p increase though is it If they do put up NI by 2% the increase. It will go from minimum wage £11.44 plus employer NI @ 13.8% = £13.02 to £12.10 plus employer NI @ 15.8% = £14.01 which is around 7.6% increase onto the payroll.

Knowing how precarious many businesses are, many still trying to fight their way out of the covid financial impact as well as the damages of the lettuce, there must be many many small business owners who could see their companies fold, or maybe depending on their age just decide to throw the towel in.
Click to expand...
Yes and add also the effect of the 3% employer pension contributions for those that haven't opted out of the scheme! I think you made the right move bailing when you did as small business owners are the only people in this economy that are getting an effective wage decrease!

We are in this ridiculous situation where we are getting squeezed from all sides, costs going up, taxation going up, regulatory compliance increasing. When the minimum wage goes up all hourly rates need to increase and salaries need to increase due expectations or you lose staff, and with the employment market as tight as it is, people are a nightmare to replace. As a small business there are very few things I can do to increase efficiency or run leaner, the most obvious would be to reduce the salaried workforce but this will have an impact on the quality of the service I provide. When you can't put up prices anymore the cost increases end up coming off your bottom line.
 


H

Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,593
Brighton
Rdodge30 said:
I’m in a similar position and I agree to a certain extent with what you say but I feel this government will make those previous decisions look like nothing. I’m genuinely worried.

Just the minimum wage alone… previous 3 years it has gone up 59p, 92p and £1.02 and this government has certainly got a bee in its bonnet about wages and has already set out a marker for where it stands- added to that do we think they are likely to increase minimum wage by less than the Tories did having declared their intention to serve ‘working people’ ?

The low pay commission forecasts 66p (£12.10) other forecasts range from 38p (£11.82) to 95p (£12.39)
Click to expand...
I am crossing my fingers that it won't be at the upper end of that estimate as I am (genuinely) not sure what I will do!
 




jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
15,061
Bozza said:
The "what is a working person?" stuff is a load of old nonsense but, like much of what has happened over the last few months, entirely seld-inflicted by a government that seems to have absolutely no idea about how to communicate effectively.

I've just searched through their manifesto and this is the sentence that I assume is at the heart of the debate: "Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

The problem is that some working people are involved in non-PAYE activities that can be subject to taxation. If taxes are increased on any of those activities, then Labour will have increased taxes on (some) working people. Whether they do or not, remains to be seen on Wednesday.

There are a whole load of ways they could have said what they probably intended to mean - no one is going to see more tax on their payslips - but didn't.
Click to expand...
It was simply good copy to get in. Don’t blame them on this actually. “Working person” type language is fantastic for their traditional core vote.

I said at the time, and all through their opposition, get in first then make change, which they’re doing.

This budget is going to be tough, but I’m not going to rinse them for it, short of something absolutely looney tunes.

WFA is a huge stain on them though. A massive one which elderly voters will remember every winter, starting here and now. Going to be very hard to get back those votes.
 


A

abc

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2007
1,418
Half Time Pies said:
Yes and add also the effect of the 3% employer pension contributions for those that haven't opted out of the scheme! I think you made the right move bailing when you did as small business owners are the only people in this economy that are getting an effective wage decrease!

We are in this ridiculous situation where we are getting squeezed from all sides, costs going up, taxation going up, regulatory compliance increasing. When the minimum wage goes up all hourly rates need to increase and salaries need to increase due expectations or you lose staff, and with the employment market as tight as it is, people are a nightmare to replace. As a small business there are very few things I can do to increase efficiency or run leaner, the most obvious would be to reduce the salaried workforce but this will have an impact on the quality of the service I provide. When you can't put up prices anymore the cost increases end up coming off your bottom line.
Click to expand...

But what do you expect, you’re not a working person! 🤬
 


A

A mex eyecan

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2011
3,976
jcdenton08 said:
It was simply good copy to get in. Don’t blame them on this actually. “Working person” type language is fantastic for their traditional core vote.

I said at the time, and all through their opposition, get in first then make change, which they’re doing.

This budget is going to be tough, but I’m not going to rinse them for it, short of something absolutely looney tunes.

WFA is a huge stain on them though. A massive one which elderly voters will remember every winter, starting here and now. Going to be very hard to get back those votes.
Click to expand...
On the surface WFA shows a saving until that is you think the whole thing through.
Many old folk will just not heat their homes which can and will lead to many becoming seriously ill, probably needing hospital treatment.
Costing the state money,
Adding strain to the already stretched
Reducing spare capacity and beds
Leading to operations needing cancellation
Leading to some people being unable to work
Causing ….,
Yup, a well thought out, stupid and spiteful ‘easy win’.
 




jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
15,061
A mex eyecan said:
On the surface WFA shows a saving until that is you think the whole thing through.
Many old folk will just not heat their homes which can and will lead to many becoming seriously ill, probably needing hospital treatment.
Costing the state money,
Adding strain to the already stretched
Reducing spare capacity and beds
Leading to operations needing cancellation
Leading to some people being unable to work
Causing ….,
Yup, a well thought out, stupid and spiteful ‘easy win’.
Click to expand...
Plus the fact that if everyone eligible but not currently claiming Pension Credits claimed and started receiving them, it would cost tens of billions, far FAR more than the alleged savings from axing WFA.

It’s just such a terrible decision.
 


Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,554
Back in Sussex
jcdenton08 said:
It was simply good copy to get in. Don’t blame them on this actually. “Working person” type language is fantastic for their traditional core vote.

I said at the time, and all through their opposition, get in first then make change, which they’re doing.

This budget is going to be tough, but I’m not going to rinse them for it, short of something absolutely looney tunes.

WFA is a huge stain on them though. A massive one which elderly voters will remember every winter, starting here and now. Going to be very hard to get back those votes.
Click to expand...
Agreed, yes.

Getting the country back on its feet is going to cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Just make sure there appears to be a perception of fairness, with the broad-shouldered taking the greatest burden etc.

I was merely chipping into this "what is a working person?" debate that still seems to be rumbling on. As I say, it strikes me as entirely self-inflicted through yet more poor comms.
 


fly high

fly high

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
1,795
in a house
A mex eyecan said:
I am so glad that I got rid of my business a couple of years back.

It‘s not just the 66p increase though is it If they do put up NI by 2% the increase. It will go from minimum wage £11.44 plus employer NI @ 13.8% = £13.02 to £12.10 plus employer NI @ 15.8% = £14.01 which is around 7.6% increase onto the payroll.

Knowing how precarious many businesses are, many still trying to fight their way out of the covid financial impact as well as the damages of the lettuce, there must be many many small business owners who could see their companies fold, or maybe depending on their age just decide to throw the towel in.
Click to expand...
My brother owns a small business which already struggles with higher costs on less sales. An above inflation rise in minimum wage plus higher NI will push him over the edge of despair. He's now 71, works 12 hour days, 6 days a week as he is the main income earner for the business but by this government's definition he is not a worker so screw him.
 




Bry Nylon

Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
Helpful Moderator
Jul 21, 2003
20,675
Playing snooker
Bozza said:
The "what is a working person?" stuff is a load of old nonsense but, like much of what has happened over the last few months, entirely seld-inflicted by a government that seems to have absolutely no idea about how to communicate effectively
Click to expand...
Yes - the government are getting themselves in some right old tangles over their inability to message consistently and clearly.

Admittedly, I haven't been following it in micro-precision, but I am sure I heard the Prime Minister say recently that there would be "no additional funding for the NHS until it reforms." But now I am hearing the Chancellor say rise the forthcoming rise in employer's NI contributions will be used to fund £20bn for the NHS?

I'm sure there are definitions around funding and caveats that make both statements perfectly plausible, but their comms management is shockingly amateur, whether its the WFA for pensioners; the whole Sue Gray fiasco; categorising free clothes etc as 'office costs' then having to re-categorise them before finally paying some of it back; trash-talking the economy; the whole 'working person' mess they've got themselves into and not forgetting the 'free ports' comms cock up this weekend.

One or two f*** ups would be entirely understandable - but its seemingly across everything on just about every topic.
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
15,061
Bozza said:
Agreed, yes.

Getting the country back on its feet is going to cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. Just make sure there appears to be a perception of fairness, with the broad-shouldered taking the greatest burden etc.

I was merely chipping into this "what is a working person?" debate that still seems to be rumbling on. As I say, it strikes me as entirely self-inflicted through yet more poor comms.
Click to expand...
Another “comms cock up” like the Freeport fiasco…
 


Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
70,018
Withdean area
A mex eyecan said:
I am so glad that I got rid of my business a couple of years back.

It‘s not just the 66p increase though is it If they do put up NI by 2% the increase. It will go from minimum wage £11.44 plus employer NI @ 13.8% = £13.02 to £12.10 plus employer NI @ 15.8% = £14.01 which is around 7.6% increase onto the payroll.

Knowing how precarious many businesses are, many still trying to fight their way out of the covid financial impact as well as the damages of the lettuce, there must be many many small business owners who could see their companies fold, or maybe depending on their age just decide to throw the towel in.
Click to expand...

Cafes, pubs, nightclubs …. will see this as another hit.
 


S

Springal

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2005
24,837
GOSBTS
A mex eyecan said:
I am so glad that I got rid of my business a couple of years back.

It‘s not just the 66p increase though is it If they do put up NI by 2% the increase. It will go from minimum wage £11.44 plus employer NI @ 13.8% = £13.02 to £12.10 plus employer NI @ 15.8% = £14.01 which is around 7.6% increase onto the payroll.

Knowing how precarious many businesses are, many still trying to fight their way out of the covid financial impact as well as the damages of the lettuce, there must be many many small business owners who could see their companies fold, or maybe depending on their age just decide to throw the towel in.
Click to expand...
I’d suggest if a business can only afford to pay minimum wage and can’t pass on a small increase it’s probably not a great business.
 




A

A mex eyecan

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2011
3,976
fly high said:
My brother owns a small business which already struggles with higher costs on less sales. An above inflation rise in minimum wage plus higher NI will push him over the edge of despair. He's now 71, works 12 hour days, 6 days a week as he is the main income earner for the business but by this government's definition he is not a worker so screw him.
Click to expand...
It’s astonishing isn’t it. I genuinely don’t think that unless you’ve been in his position you really have a clue what it’s like. Those many nights, sleepless, so concerned you cause yourself serious health issues, feeling nauseous, your head spinning. But still, it’s okay, you run your own business you must be loaded and ripe to tax and tax.
 




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