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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)



raymondo

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2017
7,407
Wiltshire
Dream on.

He u-turned on speaking to Zelenksyy because it suited his narcissistic focus on being “in” with high level talks particularly as Starmer didn’t speak to Harris which I maintain was a mistake. Harris is just as much the likely next President as Trump.

Trump is never going to be ‘open-minded’ about Ukraine, he is a Putin appeaser and any relationship between Trump and Zelenskyy is going to be characterised by Trump putting pressure on him to concede territory to Putin in some Trump-Putin favoured peace plan much in the same way, his Peace Plan for Israel sold the Palestinians down the river by agreeing that a 3rd of the West Bank be given to Israel.

Trump needs to be kept away from imposing any settlements in Ukraine - it is up to Zelenskyy what deal if any he makes with Russia, I don’t care how “open-minded” he pretends to be nor do I read anything into him agreeing to meet with Zelenskyy other than it is access for him to push Putin’s agenda for Ukraine as he always has done.
I hope to goodness that Europe/UK have plans of how to continue support for Ukraine... (without US involvement/ support) if Trump gets in.
Trump can agree what he wants with Putin, and Ukraine can tell them to f**k off, but would at least need continued support from Europe in that case.
Scary and fragile times.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
I hope to goodness that Europe/UK have plans of how to continue support for Ukraine... (without US involvement/ support) if Trump gets in.
Trump can agree what he wants with Putin, and Ukraine can tell them to f**k off, but would at least need continued support from Europe in that case.
Scary and fragile times.

I don't care what it costs, we have to support them.
 


Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,186
I hope to goodness that Europe/UK have plans of how to continue support for Ukraine... (without US involvement/ support) if Trump gets in.
Trump can agree what he wants with Putin, and Ukraine can tell them to f**k off, but would at least need continued support from Europe in that case.
Scary and fragile times.
Latest polling data:

Harris 48.6%, Trump 45.7% - average of national polls.

 


Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
6,971
I don't care what it costs, we have to support them.
Agreed that goes without saying.

But if Trump wins, we need to be prepared to do it without the US.
 


seagullwedgee

Well-known member
Aug 9, 2005
3,072
I knew the US had made a significant contribution to arming Ukraine over the last 31 months, but the precise scale of their contribution, relative to EU nations, has really has shocked me. If Trump did suspend contributions, most EU nations would have to put their economies fully onto a long term war footing, to fill the gap. It is colossal. And that means being debt laden for probably 10 to 15 years, maybe more.
 






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
I knew the US had made a significant contribution to arming Ukraine over the last 31 months, but the precise scale of their contribution, relative to EU nations, has really has shocked me.

Are the contributions gifts, or loans like we got for WW2?
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,599
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Hopefully, the plan Zelensky shows Trump will have a few crucial details either missing or 'accidentally' wrong.
Maybe he could go full “Wagatha Christie” and give each of the senior Republicans a different plan and see which one Putin reacts to?
 




Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
6,971
And need to stand firm in the face of all sorts of threats, veiled and unveiled, from Russia to dissuade us from helping Ukraine.

One of them is still 15 nautical miles off Margate.
Quite. However, Trump could pull the US out of NATO, and even if he doesn’t, he has questioned numerous times why the US should get involved in a war in Europe against Russia when it “doesn’t benefit the US”.

Bearing that in mind we should also be aware that the UK’s nuclear deterrent is a ‘£172bn pile of bricks’ because we can’t use it without US approval and those planned to be stored again at RAF Lakenheath belong to the US..


 




sparkie

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
13,280
Hove
Quite. However, Trump could pull the US out of NATO, and even if he doesn’t, he has questioned numerous times why the US should get involved in a war in Europe against Russia when it “doesn’t benefit the US”.

Bearing that in mind we should also be aware that the UK’s nuclear deterrent is a ‘£172bn pile of bricks’ because we can’t use it without US approval and those planned to be stored again at RAF Lakenheath belong to the US..


He needs the agreement of 2/3rds of the Senate to actually do that.

However... he could refuse to respond to an Article 5 call - which is sort of similar. In that case though the pressure on him would be immense.
 




A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,599
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Surely, give the amount of the US economy devoted to arms manufacture, participating in a war like this is very much in the US’s interests? As said previously, the likes of Lockheed Martin mustn’t be able to believe their luck to get to test their gear in real world conditions against Russian hardware. And the more the Europeans get concerned about the US and invest in their own companies / systems, the less market share they have.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,599
Deepest, darkest Sussex
I know I bang on about Orban a lot but f***ing Hell



This isn’t just his usual nonsense but basically a NATO and EU member saying “well, Vlad, I can tell you Budapest is just lovely, you should definitely pay us a visit…”
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
I know I bang on about Orban a lot but f***ing Hell



This isn’t just his usual nonsense but basically a NATO and EU member saying “well, Vlad, I can tell you Budapest is just lovely, you should definitely pay us a visit…”


That's mind blowing. It simply says 'Hungary is yours for free if you want it' to Putin, and that makes no sense, so what's the alternative? Maybe it's a simple lie intended to criticise Zelenskyy and support Putin.

Orban needs to go.
 




A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,599
Deepest, darkest Sussex
That's mind blowing. It simply says 'Hungary is yours for free if you want it' to Putin, and that makes no sense, so what's the alternative? Maybe it's a simple lie intended to criticise Zelenskyy and support Putin.

Orban needs to go.
And let’s not forget, Trump recently cited Orban as the world leader he most admired.
 




GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,205
Gloucester
I know I bang on about Orban a lot but f***ing Hell



This isn’t just his usual nonsense but basically a NATO and EU member saying “well, Vlad, I can tell you Budapest is just lovely, you should definitely pay us a visit…”

Orban is not popular in Hungary, I understand. Time to suspend Hungary's membership of NATO and the UN, to force his hand. Would the people of Hungary still go along with him if he had removed all possibility of ongoing freedom and prosperity for them?

And let's face it, Hungary at the moment is a threat to the integrity of both organisations.
 






Flounce

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Nov 15, 2006
4,286
After all the scandals he's come through already, how bad can it be?

I remember rumours of the Russians having footage of him with prostitutes in Moscow, but the Stormy Daniels case hasn't affected his base.

Unless it's rock solid evidence of some federal crime...
Trump is Teflon, absolutely nothing sticks, the fact that he is able to run for President proves it
 




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