[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[LamieRobertson]

He said wage rises cause inflation which ruins small businesses. He then blames the low paid who aren’t even asking for an inflation wage rise, whereas their CEO is getting over half a million a year.

Well you posted before my edit…going back to your original post I referred to this line

The company is far from going bankrupt …

and stated that he hadn’t referred to that company at all

 

[LamieRobertson]

Quite.

The whole tax thing is nonsense. Top rate of tax is 45%. It kicks in after £150K PA. Nobody earning that amount pays anything like the full whack. Pay someone a grand and they will save you 40 of that 45%, entirely legally.

At the other end of the spectrum, NI drops from 13.5% to 3.5% after you hit around £50K. A retrogressive tax!

Bored with tory boys grizzling about how much tax they pretend they're paying.

Never knew you were liable to pay so much tax Harry

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish - absolute rubbish.

Nobody can legally make your tax go away in the way you describe, and at the 50k mark the marginal income tax rate jumps by 20% - doubly offsetting the drop in NI rate.

It's worth also noting that NI contributions up to that point directly link to state pension accrual, whereas the additional 3.25% is for no additional benefit.

Tell that to Lord Vesty.

 

[schmunk]

Tell that to Lord Vesty.

Did he "Pay someone a grand" to effect his tax avoidance?

Would his complex tax avoidance loophole be considered legal today? (pro tip: No)


Your suggestion that nobody earning over £150k pays anything close to full to income tax rates is simply hyperbolic nonsense.

 

[Stat Brother]

Forgive the selfish side track.

The RMT members have voted for more action, yes?
Have they given notice of when that'll be?
How long is the notice period?



Spot the poster wanting to get the train to London next Saturday.

 

[beorhthelm]

Forgive the selfish side track.

The RMT members have voted for more action, yes?
Have they given notice of when that'll be?
How long is the notice period?



Spot the poster wanting to get the train to London next Saturday.

their previous ballot lasts for months so dont need another vote. need to give 14 days notice, so all clear for a bit.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Did he "Pay someone a grand" to effect his tax avoidance?

Would his complex tax avoidance loophole be considered legal today? (pro tip: No)


Your suggestion that nobody earning over £150k pays anything close to full to income tax rates is simply hyperbolic nonsense.

Wow. I am genuinely astonished! You'll be telling me next there are no homosexuals in Italy, and nobody there uses birth control.

 

[schmunk]

Wow. I am genuinely astonished! You'll be telling me next there are no homosexuals in Italy, and nobody there uses birth control.

What are you going on about? The simple fact is that the vast majority of people earning over £150k are employees who have miniminal opportunities to legally avoid tax (apart from pension contributions, Gift Aid, cycle-to-work and temporarily to lease an ULEV) and thus are paying a marginal 48.25% 'tax' on their income (plus 15.05% from the employer).

Business owners pay a lower rate of 39.35% on dividend income, however this money has already been through corporation tax at 19% and - lo and behold - 39.35%*100/(100-19) = 48.6% tax rate.

 

[Lever]

If you can’t handle people challenging your posts, perhaps don’t make them so combative. Personally, I have no need to ask questions of you. You gave all your answers in your opening post. You set your stall out early, so I see no need to encourage any of your waffle .

I am simply remarking that if you start a thread in the manner you did, it’s a bit pathetic to blame the response you get on the mods and to cry that you are being rounded on.

It’s a bear pit mentality and it’s disappointing to see it on the Big Board. I thought we had all moved on. It appears not.

That’s all.

He really lacks self awareness, doesn't he? He spouts rubbish, then if you confront him with facts or a different view, he starts to become needy and/or huffy.....

 

[jackalbion]

Forgive the selfish side track.

The RMT members have voted for more action, yes?
Have they given notice of when that'll be?
How long is the notice period?



Spot the poster wanting to get the train to London next Saturday.

Next Saturday will be fine

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What are you going on about? The simple fact is that the vast majority of people earning over £150k are employees who have miniminal opportunities to legally avoid tax (apart from pension contributions, Gift Aid, cycle-to-work and temporarily to lease an ULEV) and thus are paying a marginal 48.25% 'tax' on their income (plus 15.05% from the employer).

Business owners pay a lower rate of 39.35% on dividend income, however this money has already been through corporation tax at 19% and - lo and behold - 39.35%*100/(100-19) = 48.6% tax rate.

Wow. That's something else I didn't know, that the majority of people earning >£150K are on PAYE and don't do a full tax return, claiming for this, that and the other. So as we crank up the scale to the massive companies, there is a glut of money gushing to the chancellor's coffers. Nice. But, oh, hang on, eventually as income becomes staggering....

https://inews.co.uk/news/google-uk-pays-just-50m-of-tax-on-revenues-totalling-1-8bn-966557

A tiny minority, I'll agree, and indeed this is a company rather than an individual. However....where does PAYE, no wriggle room, nothing to see here, transition into massive quantitative tax easing? £500K PA? Two mil? Ten Mil?

Thinking about it....I also find the idea that most people on £150K a year are simple employees on a fixed income with PAYE a little surprising. Nobody employed via a third party? Nobody paid in a mix of salary and stock? Nobody claiming for a home office, wear and tear, or employees? Nobody offsetting tax liability by investment? And nobody taking advice, whether it be a simple £400 to do the tax return to more complex and costly advice?

Well, I'm surprised, I'll admit, but must say I am delighted that nothing like this goes on, and am more than happy to be schooled by an expert

 

[Simster]

Nobody doubts there is all sorts of tax avoidance going on [MENTION=1200]Harry Wilson's tackle[/MENTION], but where is your evidence that the vast majority of recipients of £150k pay nowhere near the full whack of tax?

My guess is that it all changes for people making millions every year because entry to off shore tax havens then come into play. To me, £150k is a nice but not particularly extraordinary amount of money to make, and my gut feeling is that plenty/most of them will be caught in PAYE.

 

[zefarelly]

union membership as a proportion of the workforce has dropped from 1/3 in the mid 90's to less than 1/4 now, I think some of that due to the safety net of EU regulations many of which enshrined what the unions originally fought for. ie fairness and safety.

Now we've decided they were rubbish, how long before unions get banned in many work places? then reopen the mines . . . and workhouses . . . .

I do love living and working in a progressive inclusive country.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Nobody doubts there is all sorts of tax avoidance going on [MENTION=1200]Harry Wilson's tackle[/MENTION], but where is your evidence that the vast majority of recipients of £150k pay nowhere near the full whack of tax?

My guess is that it all changes for people making millions every year because entry to off shore tax havens then come into play. To me, £150k is a nice but not particularly extraordinary amount of money to make, and my gut feeling is that plenty/most of them will be caught in PAYE.

This is a very interesting question. Of course I have no evidence - I would need to see an accurate list of individuals' income and tax payment, information that is not available to me. I have commented in a post made in the last 30 minutes about different way people can reduce their tax liability legally, and yes, the scope for reduction will indeed become disproportionately higher as income reaches staggering levels.

My point, put a little floridly I admit, is simply that the more you earn the more scope there is to not pay the full PAYE default, and this will become disproportionarely the case as your income soars. Perhaps £150K is a bit low. Perhaps not. I have had countless conversations with people I encounter who earn far more than me on the topic going all the way back to the Lawson era. The number of times I have been mocked for my mug PAYE position . . . .

Albeit....to me £150K is still a very large income. The median household income of the top 20% of the UK is only just over £60K

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...leincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021

In 2019, only a tiny number of people earned over £150K. A mere 321,000 people iin fact. The number will have fallen now due to recent events.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/04/17/ineq-a17.html

So I can only assume your income is approaching £150K, and I congratulate you for not joining those who have sought ways to minimise their tax liability.

 

[LamieRobertson]

union membership as a proportion of the workforce has dropped from 1/3 in the mid 90's to less than 1/4 now, I think some of that due to the safety net of EU regulations many of which enshrined what the unions originally fought for. ie fairness and safety.

Now we've decided they were rubbish, how long before unions get banned in many work places? then reopen the mines . . . and workhouses . . . .

I do love living and working in a progressive inclusive country.

My boss isn’t keen on me becoming a union member

 

[LamieRobertson]

This is a very interesting question. Of course I have no evidence - I would need to see an accurate list of individuals' income and tax payment, information that is not available to me. I have commented in a post made in the last 30 minutes about different way people can reduce their tax liability legally, and yes, the scope for reduction will indeed become disproportionately higher as income reaches staggering levels.

My point, put a little floridly I admit, is simply that the more you earn the more scope there is to not pay the full PAYE default, and this will become disproportionarely the case as your income soars. Perhaps £150K is a bit low. Perhaps not. I have had countless conversations with people I encounter who earn far more than me on the topic going all the way back to the Lawson era. The number of times I have been mocked for my mug PAYE position . . . .

Albeit....to me £150K is still a very large income. The median household income of the top 20% of the UK is only just over £60K

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...leincomeandinequality/financialyearending2021

In 2019, only a tiny number of people earned over £150K. A mere 321,000 people iin fact. The number will have fallen now due to recent events.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/04/17/ineq-a17.html

So I can only assume your income is approaching £150K, and I congratulate you for not joining those who have sought ways to minimise their tax liability.

Oh my word of the day..never used it before ..ive been educated

 

[schmunk]

Wow. That's something else I didn't know, that the majority of people earning >£150K are on PAYE and don't do a full tax return, claiming for this, that and the other. So as we crank up the scale to the massive companies, there is a glut of money gushing to the chancellor's coffers. Nice. But, oh, hang on, eventually as income becomes staggering....

https://inews.co.uk/news/google-uk-pays-just-50m-of-tax-on-revenues-totalling-1-8bn-966557

A tiny minority, I'll agree, and indeed this is a company rather than an individual. However....where does PAYE, no wriggle room, nothing to see here, transition into massive quantitative tax easing? £500K PA? Two mil? Ten Mil?

Thinking about it....I also find the idea that most people on £150K a year are simple employees on a fixed income with PAYE a little surprising. Nobody employed via a third party? Nobody paid in a mix of salary and stock? Nobody claiming for a home office, wear and tear, or employees? Nobody offsetting tax liability by investment? And nobody taking advice, whether it be a simple £400 to do the tax return to more complex and costly advice?

Well, I'm surprised, I'll admit, but must say I am delighted that nothing like this goes on, and am more than happy to be schooled by an expert

You seem to be in a real tizzy about this, but please, don't just take my word for it - here's the latest I could find on the subject from HMRC (2019/20 tax year, published March 2022): https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...0-commentary-for-tables-31-to-311-316-and-317



Roughly 70% of 'additional rate' taxpayers (i.e. income from all sources exceeding £150k) have the majority of their income from employment.

• All of the bankers? Employees.
• All of the fat-cat C-suite company execs? Employees.
• All of their bonuses and share income (apart from potentially a small amount in 'tax favoured' all-employee share schemes)? Taxed as employment income at the same 48.25% rate (+ 15.05% from their employer).
• Employees earning over £100k do need to file tax returns, but can't claim anything other than tiny amounts (if at all) for the expenses you mention. They genuinely do pay tax at full rates on virtually all of their income (with the exception being the very open and well published 'avoidance' schemes created by government, e.g. pension contributions).
• Google's UK corporation tax liability has no bearing on the UK personal tax liabilities of any of its employees or shareholders. Google and its parent Alphabet have never paid out any dividends and have publicly stated that they do not intend to do so in the near future.
• The Google Annual Report referenced in your link (https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03977902/filing-history) shows that Google paid £118M of employer NI contributions in that tax year. It doesn't show the PAYE or employee NI withholdings as that is not a cost of the business, but be assured that they will have been made in full.

 

[beorhthelm]

union membership as a proportion of the workforce has dropped from 1/3 in the mid 90's to less than 1/4 now, I think some of that due to the safety net of EU regulations many of which enshrined what the unions originally fought for. ie fairness and safety.

Now we've decided they were rubbish, how long before unions get banned in many work places? then reopen the mines . . . and workhouses . . . .

I do love living and working in a progressive inclusive country.

cant open mines, environmental objections. cant have workhouses, planning objections.

 

[Stat Brother]

their previous ballot lasts for months so dont need another vote. need to give 14 days notice, so all clear for a bit.

Next Saturday will be fine

Thank you, both, for taking the time.

 

[zefarelly]

My boss isn’t keen on me becoming a union member

I was union leader at my business, knocked off at 4 most days, sometimes downed tools at 3 when it was really hot and sunny.