Why did I BOTHER with the Lib Dems?

[Mr Banana]

As I think I've already mentioned on NSC ... a few weeks ago I was asked if I would stand at the next Lewes District Council elections - for the Conservatives.



God knows why. They must be REALLY desperate.

My God. Could you tell the story, along with a running commentary of your thoughts? I'll repay in beer if you feel the time you spend on it is excessive.

 

[alan partridge]

I see nothing wrong in someone who doesn't pay UK Tax advising on government spending. It could be argued he is a disinterested party and therefore able to give an objective view. Ofcourse, the sneering Guardian and its silver spoon in the mouth socialist readers won't see it that way.

hmmm yes, who's sneering here?

 

[SeagullRic]

There goes my gap year, and possibly my application altogether. Its an absolute joke of a decision, it really is simply pushing the lower classes out of higher education, an oppurtunity which should be open to all.
f***ing Sickening.

I agree, but I'm fairly sure that if you apply for a deferred entry you still get the current fees. Thus if you do want to go, having a gap year really wouldn't make a difference.

 

[SeagullRic]

I am really asking 1.) why you might choose not to go to uni now.
2.)Why do the new proposals necessarily drive the lower classes out of higher education?After all, the graduate gets the debt,not the parents and payback time doesn't start until earnings hit £21,000.
By the way,I am not for a minute suggesting the new proposals are good news,but it wouldn't have been any better under the Labour Party....after all,they originally commissioned the Browne Report.
P.S.My eldest boy starts uni in Sept.2011,so none of us are overjoyed!

The key difference which many are forgetting is that degree loans are currently interest free i.e. if you owe £21,000 at the end, thats the amount you are expected to pay back. What this report suggests is that interest will be earned depending on how long it takes you to start paying it back. Hence if you don't get a job paying over £21,000 for 5 years, your going to end up paying an extra 7 or 8 thousand pounds. This won't be such a problem for "rich" graduates, but for those with no support financially from parents and/or contacts to get into a high paying job straight away, its going to increase the burden massively. For me, this is simply wrong.

 

[withdeanwombat]

This is taken as read when the Tories are in power , the LibDems are just the teaboys of the Coalition.

Shit! They've promoted the LibDems.

 

[ROSM]

what an interesting thread. Just a few points of note;

- as with any large employer (the indian railways, chinese military, BT, Barclays) there will also be differences and waste which can be looked at and eradicated. Even in Arcadia that could be achieved. But there are two ironies with Green's comments;

1) that as has been pointed out, he has found ways to avoid paying the full expected UK tax levels. Now he may say that if we waste less he'll be happy to do so, so in which case can i stop paying taxes until we scrapt Trident?

2) One of his main methods of saving central government waste is to use the government buying power to drive down prices with no bearing on location or delivery times. He also suggests leveraging the cedit rating to get better payment terms - in effect he says we are paying too quickly.

However both of these suggestions will hit the supplier, that's the private sector to you and me. You know, the very same sector that will suffer costs due to cutting government projects and also is expected to fuel the recovery.

I have seen these exercises put into practice in my own company and actually the unit cost of the product goes up, you start to receive a standardised delivery and requisition service (lead times etc) and end up saving a small percentage of the expected figures.

- as for tuition fees. This alongside the benefits fiasco is just another symptom is social engineering by policy (may be just a coincidence of course) rather than necessity. So we stop lower middle class aspiring families from beig encouraged to breed, we make it impossible for then to send their kids to higher education and also we get all the poor scum to move out of the nice areas and into ghettos should they ever be unlucky enough to be on benefits.

I am appalled. Both by my own party's inability to think carefully about higher education when they were in power (the start of tuition fees was the main culprit here), not pushing for apprenticeships to be delivered as an alternative to university etc; but also by the manner in which the Lib Dems stand idly by whilst Osborne and his social experiments go marching on

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

There are two parties really. Labour and Conservative. A vote for any other is just a waste really.

 

[Simster]

There are two parties really. Labour and Conservative. A vote for any other is just a waste really.

That's a bit simplistic under a first past the post system. What I will say is that in my constituency where the Tories always get in and the Lib Dems are always second, there is now little point in voting Lib Dem if you're anti-Tory. My next vote will be a protest vote to one of the local minnows; the Greens, Labour or some spurious pressure party I agree with.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The reality is none of the three parties got a majority of seats so the two that govern have to COMPROMISE. This means broken promises on BOTH sides.

But since when have the electorate been so precious about "broken promises"? Blair promised us a referendum on Europe in 1997, that never happened and now we're TOTALLY committed.

We're in for 4 and a half years of compromise, which is fine by me if the Lib Dems can take the edge off Tories right-wing craziness and the Tories can rein in Lib Dems lefty policies.

 

[ROKERITE]

what an interesting thread. Just a few points of note;

- as with any large employer (the indian railways, chinese military, BT, Barclays) there will also be differences and waste which can be looked at and eradicated. Even in Arcadia that could be achieved. But there are two ironies with Green's comments;

1) that as has been pointed out, he has found ways to avoid paying the full expected UK tax levels. Now he may say that if we waste less he'll be happy to do so, so in which case can i stop paying taxes until we scrapt Trident?

2) One of his main methods of saving central government waste is to use the government buying power to drive down prices with no bearing on location or delivery times. He also suggests leveraging the cedit rating to get better payment terms - in effect he says we are paying too quickly.

However both of these suggestions will hit the supplier, that's the private sector to you and me. You know, the very same sector that will suffer costs due to cutting government projects and also is expected to fuel the recovery.

I have seen these exercises put into practice in my own company and actually the unit cost of the product goes up, you start to receive a standardised delivery and requisition service (lead times etc) and end up saving a small percentage of the expected figures.

- as for tuition fees. This alongside the benefits fiasco is just another symptom is social engineering by policy (may be just a coincidence of course) rather than necessity. So we stop lower middle class aspiring families from beig encouraged to breed, we make it impossible for then to send their kids to higher education and also we get all the poor scum to move out of the nice areas and into ghettos should they ever be unlucky enough to be on benefits.

I am appalled. Both by my own party's inability to think carefully about higher education when they were in power (the start of tuition fees was the main culprit here), not pushing for apprenticeships to be delivered as an alternative to university etc; but also by the manner in which the Lib Dems stand idly by whilst Osborne and his social experiments go marching on

What nonsense your point first point is. Actually, make that your entire post. We don't get to choose what our taxes are spent on, except by voting in elections. If we did I'd choose mine to go on replacing Trident and not paying for unmarried mothers. If Green has found a way to avoid, legally, paying UK Taxes then it's very good of him to offer his services in finding ways for the taxes paid by the rest of us, to be used more efficiently.
I applaud Cable and this government for tackling the difficult issue of paying for university education. If a degree isn't worth getting into debt for then it isn't worth having.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Going back to the original question, about why bother voting Lib Dem, what's key is whether they can communicate their PRINCIPLES and what it is they stand for.

With the electoral system we have they have little chance of achieving a majority of seats, so any place in government is likely to be a minority party in coalition.

Their role is then to put pressure on a Labour-led government to curb the tendency towards the nanny state and excessive government spending, whilst their objective with a Tory government is to restrict or moderate "unfair" policy that discrimates against the poorer members of society.

From where I'm standing they seem to be influencing Tory policy and making it fairer. I think they've made a good start but, inevitably, the Tories will want to flex their muscles and tuition fees could be that issue.

It would be unrealistic to think some Tory policy won't be enacted because it will - the Lib Dems are, after all, are the minority party.

 

[Gazwag]

There goes my gap year, and possibly my application altogether. Its an absolute joke of a decision, it really is simply pushing the lower classes out of higher education, an oppurtunity which should be open to all.
f***ing Sickening.

Why should it be, are scholarships available, if not they should be so the clever people go to university to learn and achieve and the ones who dont try and get a job and do work based study.

It seems you are more upset about missing your gap year.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

If Green has found a way to avoid, legally, paying UK Taxes then it's very good of him to offer his services in finding ways for the taxes paid by the rest of us, to be used more efficiently.

Haha



Oh, hang on. You're actually NOT joking!

 

[User removed 4]

What nonsense your point first point is. Actually, make that your entire post. We don't get to choose what our taxes are spent on, except by voting in elections. If we did I'd choose mine to go on replacing Trident and not paying for unmarried mothers. If Green has found a way to avoid, legally, paying UK Taxes then it's very good of him to offer his services in finding ways for the taxes paid by the rest of us, to be used more efficiently.
I applaud Cable and this government for tackling the difficult issue of paying for university education. If a degree isn't worth getting into debt for then it isn't worth having.

Simple, but very effective post

 

[ROSM]

What nonsense your point first point is. Actually, make that your entire post. We don't get to choose what our taxes are spent on, except by voting in elections. If we did I'd choose mine to go on replacing Trident and not paying for unmarried mothers. If Green has found a way to avoid, legally, paying UK Taxes then it's very good of him to offer his services in finding ways for the taxes paid by the rest of us, to be used more efficiently.
I applaud Cable and this government for tackling the difficult issue of paying for university education. If a degree isn't worth getting into debt for then it isn't worth having.

You actually believe this don't you I never said we choose, I'm saying he's chosen not to in the first place. But out of the goodness of his heart according to you, he's offered his advice to us. Well thanks very much and please wait while I doff my cap.

 

[ROSM]

Haha



Oh, hang on. You're actually NOT joking!

my thoughts exactly

 

[Curious Orange]

You're welcome to add to the steady stream joining/re-joining the Labour Party. Hove and Portslade is enjoying a healthy influx of members.

The same Labour party that introduced tuition fees in the first place... and commissioned this report... and encouraged unsustainable university numbers rather than encouraging people to get themselves an appropriate education.

 

[Simster]

The same Labour party that introduced tuition fees in the first place... and commissioned this report... and encouraged unsustainable university numbers rather than encouraging people to get themselves an appropriate education.

Hopefully it's not the same one at all. I think most Labour grass roots have had enough of the bell ends who squandered power so ineffectively.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Just had an email from Vince - not sure if this will shed any light on the decision for you Simster:

Dear TRHK,

Taking decisions about Higher Education funding isn’t easy, particularly in times of fiscal constraint. And I know that some of what was announced yesterday will be difficult for some party members.

But in supporting the thrust of Lord Browne’s review I believe this Government is taking the difficult decisions needed to deliver a fair deal to both universities and students. We have obtained a much more progressive system of payment for graduate contributions than currently exists.

I will outline what the Government will put forward following the spending review next week, but Lord Browne’s proposals would be a major reform of higher education funding. It effectively replaces Labour’s unfair one-size fits-all formula with a fairer plan which reflects students’ different circumstances - the poorest 30% of graduates will pay less than they do now. No one would pay back a penny until they are earning close to the average salary and those who earn more from their degree will pay back more.

I have welcomed plans that will scrap up-front costs for part-time students, making a valuable element of our education available to all and ending the disgraceful situation in which they were treated unfairly; paying upfront.

In the near future I will come forward with further detailed proposals which will make it attractive for students from families of modest means to go to university.

As in the report, we are considering a threshold of £7,000 for university fees, as this is the only realistic way to secure the funding our universities desperately need. Many universities and colleges may well decide to charge less than that, since there is clearly scope for greater efficiency and innovation in the way universities operate. Two year ordinary degrees are one approach that should be considered.

Lord Browne suggests there should be circumstances under which universities can price their courses above this threshold. He suggests this would be conditional on universities demonstrating that funds would be invested in scholarships and bursaries for students from less privileged backgrounds and in raising the quality of teaching and learning. The Government is considering this aspect of the review carefully.

I have explained in a previous email to members why I did not think a pure Graduate Tax proposal would be fair or would work. However I am determined to make those who can afford to pay more do so and that those who do less well paid jobs pay less. At my request as a Liberal Democrat Minister, Lord Browne has come up with a specific proposal to lift the threshold at which repayment of student loans starts to £21,000 and to introduce a variable rate of interest on loans to protect low earning graduates.

The Government will go further than the Browne recommendations and come forward with proposals for exempting the poorest students from graduate contributions for some or all of their studies. Making university accessible for all is a key priority for this Government as part of our drive for social mobility. And we are considering how to discourage very affluent families and graduates buying their way out of the system.

The Coalition Government’s proposals will create a level playing field for part-time students, help those from less privileged backgrounds get to universities and ensure that those with the broadest shoulders contribute more. It is a fair and progressive policy that will build an equitable Higher Education system to last.

Best wishes,

Vince Cable MP
Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

 

[glasfryn]

greens

they are going to get my vote from now on