What the f**k is happening in this country

[Cian]

They have high rises here, but only in the centre. There's also more Irish here than there are in Ireland mate. If they all went home Ireland would sink!

40 million current Irish passports, 400 million claim to be "Irish"

4.1 million people live in the Republic

 

[Commander]

40 million current Irish passports, 400 million claim to be "Irish"

4.1 million people live in the Republic

Strange thing is, the Irish bars out here are always the best, much better than the Kiwi ones. And even stranger, despite the fact that there seems to be about 40 million Irish here, they all know each other. It's quite bizzare. I've even begun to develop a taste for Kilkenny.

 

[Cian]

I've even begun to develop a taste for Kilkenny.

Just remember its called Smithwicks in Ireland, if you're ever over here...

 

[Commander]

Just remember its called Smithwicks in Ireland, if you're ever over here...

You learn something new every day...

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Half of my mates are Irish over here too. They're everywhere....

Back to the thread, there's a lot to be said for the argument that the media are creating fear. Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine showed this up over in the US, and with Fox being global I'm afraid it's the truth

 

[e77]

I think the problem is the government seem to concentrate on headline grabbing things like hoodies and urinating in the street, which in the grand scheme of things aren't really that dangerous and don't focus on dealing with the real crime.

 

[London Calling]

Tooting - I agree with most of what you say. Most would. The two murders you talk of disgust and sicken me as they do the vast majority of us. But I'm not sure there really was some sort of "golden age" you seem to imply. Isn't the reality that there have always been terrible crimes, be they racially motivated or not?

That said, you raise an interesting question about fear and intervention. It's a terrible thing to say but our society is turning into one where most of us, faced with a violent sitaution or just a bunch of mouthy youths, would probably end up not saying anything or walk on by, for fear of getting abused, beaten up or God forbid, stabbed to death on a bus. I suppose the issue is why has this happened and what can we do about it?

Yes the Courts have a role but surely there's a limit to how many kids we lock up? We do have the highest prison population in Europe. I don't know the answers and I don't pretend to but what the f*** have the parents of the kids perpetrating these crimes and more minor ones done about bringing up their children? You have to conclude that many of their parents ( if they have them) have done a terrible job of bringing these people up. Perhaps we should introduce " parenting classes" as school? Although for some at the school I attended, it was too late by the time they were 15 - already up the duff. It's difficult for children to bring up children. I don't know... what a problem.
But, yes I know I sound like a Daily Mail reader too, parenting has a massive role to play.

At what age should the state intervene and say to people, you can't or aren't loooking after your kids properly? That's a very difficult question.

I think we are a more fearful society although whether we're actually a more violent one, I doubt, although I'm not a criminologist. But I do know there's isn't any respect anymore.

Good thread.

Generally in agreement here.

The main issue has been the decline in authority.

Once an authoritive figure could have stopped a gang of youths etc, this person nows fears they will at minimum be abused to at worst being attacked.

Unfortunately, all of the youth have picked up on this and most adults fear the worst and rather not get involved.

In my borough (Hackney) this effect is even more exagerated but you do notice whwn an adult does get involved most kids become meek kids again.

Unfortunately we have a press, similar to the US that sells papers by focussing on death, fear of crime. fear of immigrants. I also note that the mass media did not focus (last weekend) on a black man attacking an Iraqi, in what was also described as a racial crime.

However, I remember very well. That when the media went press frenzy over the death of the two white Soham girls living in their idyll rural area - our dream world. They at the same time totally ignored the disapearance and presumed death of two Black sisters from Newham. To me they both deserved the same press attention.

To be honest I am selective when I get involved. Always leave alone the bus nutter. But in a local shop when a local youth played the staring out the white adult, I stood my ground. He backed down. Ms LC was not happy with me!

LC

 

[Tooting Gull]

Just to come back on one point. Quite a few have suggested, perhaps fairly given the initial point, that I believed there was some 'golden age' with no violence.

I don't think that at all - but I do not believe the comparison with the likes of Peter Sutcliffe is helpful. There will always be really eveil people around in any era.

The slight difference now, I believe, is (in addition to any serial killers around) the very casual attitude to life from a lot of violent youths - the bus murder was almost certainly not premeditated, just spur-of-the-moment rage followed by stabbing. It is that complete lack of respect for life/authority/other people among large swathes of youngsters that is on the increase.

 

[Gwylan]

The slight difference now, I believe, is (in addition to any serial killers around) the very casual attitude to life from a lot of violent youths - the bus murder was almost certainly not premeditated, just spur-of-the-moment rage followed by stabbing. It is that complete lack of respect for life/authority/other people among large swathes of youngsters that is on the increase.

George Orwell mentioned this very point in the Decline of the English Murder - his essay was based on the thesis that the kids today just didn't care, not like the old-fashioned, honest murderers of his youth. Orwell was writing in 1946 - so perhaps generation after generation is accustomed to believe the worst of its youth.

 

[Stinky Kat]

Lack of respect nutured by a throw away society which only cares for money and nmaterial pocessions. Throw in dead end jobs and cheap booze and drugs and its hey presto kids doing what they want.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Anyboby remember the Keith Lyons murder in the 60's, a young boy from Ovingdean, the same age as me. I do not know what the media frenzy would do now - then - I do not remember many (if any) changes to our routine and we caught the bus to and from Ovingdean.

 

[Brixtaan]

Lack of respect nutured by a throw away society which only cares for money and nmaterial pocessions. Throw in dead end jobs and cheap booze and drugs and its hey presto kids doing what they want.

In a nutshell,post of the thread.End of.

 

[Gwylan]

Anyboby remember the Keith Lyons murder in the 60's, a young boy from Ovingdean, the same age as me. I do not know what the media frenzy would do now - then - I do not remember many (if any) changes to our routine and we caught the bus to and from Ovingdean.

Yeah, his killer was never caught.

I remember that I carried on walking over the Downs to school as if nothing had happened - my parents just told me to take extra care. There's certainly a greater fear now, but I don't think it's based on a reality.

 

[Tooting Gull]

You seem very sure things aren't worse now, Gwylan. The only thing I would say to you is - what if it really is worse. And there genuinely are more people out there who have no or little regard for authority or life.

Don't you risk, by shrugging the shoulders and saying 'it's always been like this', letting something really unpleasant get stoked up for the future? You, I think, might be a very good example of one worrying aspect of the problem.

You obviously think about these issues, and take them seriously. If you aren't that unduly concerned, we're in serious trouble aren't we? Given what's going on out there.

 

[Scoffers]

My brother got fed up with his bus (from Churchill Sq to Hollingbury) being pelted with stones, and emigrated to Canada (Vancouver Island) in 2001. Haven't seen him since.

I just started a family in 2003 and it does worry me the sort of world my kids will be adults in. You do your best to bring them up the right way, then they get stabbed defending their wife on a bus.

Anyone know how much it costs to emigrate to Canada !!

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

My brother got fed up with his bus (from Churchill Sq to Hollingbury) being pelted with stones, and emigrated to Canada (Vancouver Island) in 2001. Haven't seen him since.

I just started a family in 2003 and it does worry me the sort of world my kids will be adults in. You do your best to bring them up the right way, then they get stabbed defending their wife on a bus.

Anyone know how much it costs to emigrate to Canada !!

In a European context, is this problem a pecuilarly "British" one? Go anywhere in Europe...France, Germany, Spain, the Scandinavian countries, they don't seem to have the same "casual" violence as we do. Yes drink plays a big part but I don't think that's the whole story. We seem to glory being " hard" in this country.. at school, on the football pitches, being hard seems to be an aspiration for many young men ( a necessity for some of course). Being hard means proving it... hence one reason for violence. Is this attitude so widespread elsewhere in Europe? I don't think so.

In an earlier post , I talked about poor parenting but I do think we need to look at providing more things for young people to do. For example, ,more sporting facilities. In the aftermath of the Broadwater Farm riots in the 1980's, the government invested in housing there and provided sports/community facilities. There's a fantastic bloke there who runs about 11 football teams, gym classes etc for all ages. It's not the whole answer of course but it has made a real difference.

If you give people things to do, perhaps they'll be less likely to get into trouble. That is unless they smash them up!

 

[Creamy]

We seem to glory being " hard" in this country..

I don't agree entirely with you that Europe is THAT different, I've lived there and seen a fair amount of street violence, but I think you have hit the nail right on the head there. It's my least favourite thing about the UK. You only have to look through a few threads on NSC to see the kind of attitude your talking about. It's everywhere....from the way Dads bring up their boys to lads down the pub. I f***ing hate it.

 

[Gwylan]

You seem very sure things aren't worse now, Gwylan. The only thing I would say to you is - what if it really is worse. And there genuinely are more people out there who have no or little regard for authority or life.

Don't you risk, by shrugging the shoulders and saying 'it's always been like this', letting something really unpleasant get stoked up for the future? You, I think, might be a very good example of one worrying aspect of the problem.

You obviously think about these issues, and take them seriously. If you aren't that unduly concerned, we're in serious trouble aren't we? Given what's going on out there.

I'm not sure I am saying that. I'm saying that over the years people have always said that things weren't the same as when they were young, as an example, I pointed out that in 1946 Orwell was saying exactly the same things about lack of moral code that you were... and I'm sure that we can find examples that go back further than that.

But there's no way to tell for sure and, you could be right, things could be getting worse. It's just that it's so hard to prove either way. Statistics don't even tell the whole story as there have been different ways of reporting crime throughout the years. And the media certainly haven't helped matters: there's a fear of crime that's completely disproportionate to the reality.

Yes, there are some horrific incidents but they are thankfully rare. I've lived 48 years of my life in places like Moulescoomb, inner-city Bradford and in Finsbury Park and south London; in all that time I've been held-up at knifepoint once, burgled once and had a bike nicked - that's the sum total of crimes against me in, statistically, some of the worst parts of the country. Yes, we could be ignoring some obvious warning signs but it doesn't strike me that we're heading for anarchy just yet.