What needs to be done to make England world beaters?

[sydney]

i do believe it is known as the beautiful game , on the continent* ,in africa*, asia minor and major ,south america * and possibly north/mainland america.......whereas in the good island of grande bregtaneit is known as "bore your opponent and fans to death," *= try and score a goal during regulation time or two, f***ing woefull , no other word for it .

 

[peterward]

But is it ??

The Academies, ours too, seems to be awash with money and many local football youth teams are well resourced and seem to have to fight off the senior sides that want to get their hands on the healthy bank balances of those younger teams.

We generally have access to decent training facilities and you can't move for mini hurdles, slalom poles and matching tracksuits, yet still the comparatively poorer continents offer players that are deemed better technicians than what we have.

Its a deeper cultural thing that I am not sure we can shake off anytime soon.

lack of pro coaching at grass roots, well meaning dads v's uefa pro badge holders in Spain.

in the short term I am quietly confident a few liverpool players inc Joe Cole, now under Brendon Rogers, will be a lot better equipped for England than at present.

Hodgson could do a lot worse than go to liverpool and watch Brendons training methods, his adaptive 4-2-3-1 gleaned from Barca and Ajax, the same one Gus (another modern manager/thinker) employs

 

[sydney]

But is it ??

The Academies, ours too, seems to be awash with money and many local football youth teams are well resourced and seem to have to fight off the senior sides that want to get their hands on the healthy bank balances of those younger teams.

We generally have access to decent training facilities and you can't move for mini hurdles, slalom poles and matching tracksuits, yet still the comparatively poorer continents offer players that are deemed better technicians than what we have.

Its a deeper cultural thing that I am not sure we can shake off anytime soon.

was gonna pull you up there but then after reading your post six times it clicked.................we are boring mate , we haven't had a flair player since gazzer or beckham......we are doomed ....we need a clean out and a whole new mindset ......otherwise ,we are fuct.

 

[BigGully]

lack of pro coaching at grass roots, well meaning dads v's uefa pro badge holders in Spain

Look I am generally with you on most of your sentiments and a better grade of coaching to youngsters will offer better development and within the Academy system, ours included this has been addressed and highly qualified coaches only can deliver training and practice to those youngsters signed at a club.

I am not yet going to concede that in Spain every under 10 team is getting a pro license coach delivering session, but accepted that if you have a far greater number of said coaches, then it follows that more players are receiving their coaching.

My point is that the qualifications do not necessarily lend itself to a Barca form of play.

Most qualifications offer a greater insight into the complexities of the game, including nutrition, communication etc. but allow the coach to then conclude how they might win a football match.

It doesnt necessarily follow that those coaches will then implement a style of play that we are all currently advocating, bearing in mind that most of the Premiership managers and Roy Hodgson hold a current pro license ( highest qualification ) and outside of a few managers it hasn't followed that they try and play a style of football that replicates Spain.

 

[peterward]

Look I am generally with you on most of your sentiments and a better grade of coaching to youngsters will offer better development and within the Academy system, ours included this has been addressed and highly qualified coaches only can deliver training and practice to those youngsters signed at a club.

I am not yet going to concede that in Spain every under 10 team is getting a pro license coach delivering session, but accepted that if you have a far greater number of said coaches, then it follows that more players are receiving their coaching.

My point is that the qualifications do not necessarily lend itself to a Barca form of play.

Most qualifications offer a greater insight into the complexities of the game, including nutrition, communication etc. but allow the coach to then conclude how they might win a football match.

It doesnt necessarily follow that those coaches will then implement a style of play that we are all currently advocating, bearing in mind that most of the Premiership managers and Roy Hodgson hold a current pro license ( highest qualification ) and outside of a few managers it hasn't followed that they try and play a style of football that replicates Spain.

i agree with that, If I were in the FA i would want England first team to develop a system and way of playing (as did the Germans 10 years ago), and then as Swansea have done get managers who will uphold/improve that system, rather than a new man with new system and ideas every 4 years.

once thats established ( and i think ours and swanseas, liverpools, Spain, germany, Ajax, holland)4-2-3-1 or very similar is the way forward.

Teach all the pro coaches that system and the ball skills required to play it, from England u16 up to first team (much like our DS) that England system is engrained and the requisite skills taught.

Get England coaches to work with Football league clubs and their acadamies, especially ones with a similar style. Get Hodgson or his coaches to take some training of those clubs and get people like Gus, Rogers (or whoever play similar to the England style) to come and share their ideas with England training sessions.

I actually think Brendon Rogers at Liverpool and now overseeing the liverpool academy is going to help England, he wont be interested in kick/rush, but passing under pressure

 

[Gwylan]

2. The Premier League is killing English players. It might be bloody exciting but really, how are players like Josh McEacheron ever going to compete at the highest level if their own experience of CL football in dead rubbera and they make about 6 sub appearances a season in the EPL. Also, how many england players could we genuinely say are in the top two or three players for their clubs?

But doesn't the first part of this follow from the second? Is English players are not the most technically gifted at their clubs, they're not going to be first choice.

I don't buy into this too many foreigners business: if the English players were world-class, they'd play. If they're average mid-league hoofers, they probably won't but suddenly removing the foreign players wouldn't turn those into world beaters.

I agree with everything else that has been said about youth training, the culture of kids football and the paucity of coaches.

One thing I'd also add is that our players don't get a rounded education by playing in other countries and experiencing other coaching methods. People mention that team in 1990 but several of them had played/were playing for foreign teams. Not a single member of the England team in Euro 12 played outside the PL (nor had in the past). Yes, improve coaching and teach more ball skills from an early age but let them develop their game as adults too.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

For me, the problem is a simple case of dilution through choice. The stats on qualified football coaches by country underpins it. However, I do not know what the solution is.
I too am a professional qualified coach ........ in cricket.

Here we go:
If you are a German kid good at sport, you will be directed to football, there are no distractions with rugby or cricket in the sport that country offers.
Same for Spain, Greece, Turkey, Russia, etc etc.
Some countires are world-class [almost] in several sports, but few are in as many as England.
Tell me how good the Aussie football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the NZ football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the Italian cricket team are - compared to football and rugby
Tell me how good the Brazillian rugby and cricket teams are - compared to football
Tell me how good the Indian and Pakistani rugby & football teams are compared to cricket
The list goes on .... you get the idea.

The issue is dilution in players, coaches and supporters through other sports choices.
The very very best nations in any given sport don't have so many options for their most talented kids to choose from.

I'm head coach of one of the county cricket squads and several of the lads are on the academies for Wolves and Shrewsbury.
At some point, they will have to make a choice, the loss to the other sport is the dilution I refer to.

Problem identified - solution ? I have no idea!

 

[sydney]

For me, the problem is a simple case of dilution through choice. The stats on qualified football coaches by country underpins it. However, I do not know what the solution is.
I too am a professional qualified coach ........ in cricket.

Here we go:
If you are a German kid good at sport, you will be directed to football, there are no distractions with rugby or cricket in the sport that country offers.
Same for Spain, Greece, Turkey, Russia, etc etc.
Some countires are world-class [almost] in several sports, but few are in as many as England.
Tell me how good the Aussie football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the NZ football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the Italian cricket team are - compared to football and rugby
Tell me how good the Brazillian rugby and cricket teams are - compared to football
Tell me how good the Indian and Pakistani rugby & football teams are compared to cricket
The list goes on .... you get the idea.

The issue is dilution in players, coaches and supporters through other sports choices.
The very very best nations in any given sport don't have so many options for their most talented kids to choose from.

I'm head coach of one of the county cricket squads and several of the lads are on the academies for Wolves and Shrewsbury.
At some point, they will have to make a choice, the loss to the other sport is the dilution I refer to.

Problem identified - solution ? I have no idea!

very interesting/good post mate .....the same would be applicable to the Aussie demographic though.........
.football being a close run fourth after rugby league/union ......afl ...
it is a growing sport however and i hope they dont get bogged down with the negative tactics that we cough up recently.

 

[peterward]

For me, the problem is a simple case of dilution through choice. The stats on qualified football coaches by country underpins it. However, I do not know what the solution is.
I too am a professional qualified coach ........ in cricket.

Here we go:
If you are a German kid good at sport, you will be directed to football, there are no distractions with rugby or cricket in the sport that country offers.
Same for Spain, Greece, Turkey, Russia, etc etc.
Some countires are world-class [almost] in several sports, but few are in as many as England.
Tell me how good the Aussie football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the NZ football team are - compared to cricket and rugby
Tell me how good the Italian cricket team are - compared to football and rugby
Tell me how good the Brazillian rugby and cricket teams are - compared to football
Tell me how good the Indian and Pakistani rugby & football teams are compared to cricket
The list goes on .... you get the idea.

The issue is dilution in players, coaches and supporters through other sports choices.
The very very best nations in any given sport don't have so many options for their most talented kids to choose from.

I'm head coach of one of the county cricket squads and several of the lads are on the academies for Wolves and Shrewsbury.
At some point, they will have to make a choice, the loss to the other sport is the dilution I refer to.

Problem identified - solution ? I have no idea!

thats not the problem, in all those countries you mentioned, 1 sport is by far and away the biggest and those countries excel in their national game, like Rugby in NZ, Cricket in India, football in Germany.

we may have choice but football is by far the biggest sport our national game and the most accessible sport in England. Anyone can play with a ball and some mates. we should be better at our national game.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

You're absolutely right. The good thing is that the FA recently voted through big changes to the youth coaching setup in this country which will hopefully see exactly this happening. Problem is, of course, it'll take 10-15 years for the difference to be felt. And there are still some dinosaurs knocking about, particularly in the county FAs, who voted against the proposals. The sooner they are weeded out the better, because I'm sure somewhere you'll still get pushy parents and neanderthal coaches going for the win at all costs approach with 10 year olds and just lumping the ball forward to a lad who's bigger than everyone else.

I remember Danny Mills telling a story on the radio about how he'd contacted the local league his young son plays in to suggest banning long kicks out by goalkeepers. The response he received was that no, it's important for youngsters to learn how to challenge for headers and "control the long ball."

Would a dinosaur be Neil 'Tippy Tappy Football' Warnock ?

 

[JJB]

I think it's that scheme whereby youth systems are graded in one of four categories, and effectively higher-ranked ones can sign youngsters from lower-level ones for very little compensation. The Football League were effectively forced to adopt it by the Premier League threatening to withdraw their "solidarity payments" to the FL unless they did. From a selfish point of view, the good news is that our new facilities, when built, will be in the top grading.

I cannot see Brighton being Cat 1. There will only be a small number of Cat 1 academies, for good reason, they won't give them out willy nilly. In your area, you're competing with Southampton, Chelsea, Arsenal, Fulham and Watford for Cat 1. We (Southampton) from people I know at Cheltenham FC are going to be one of the few Cat 1 academies and that's pretty obvious why, you just have to look at our track record over the last 25 years. We are also currently improving our training facilities and academy facilities with an investment of £15million (on already top class facilities). That should be compeleted some time in the near future and will be to the highest spec in the UK and possibly europe.

Brighton may have decent facilities at some point, but they are a long, long way away. Then you have to have the coaching expertise and the track record, plus the continuous £2million+ investment annually. It's not impossible for Brighton to be Cat 1 in 15 years time (should EPPP still be running) but until then I believe cat 2 is the best that you can hope for which is still impressive.

 

[BigGully]

I cannot see Brighton being Cat 1. There will only be a small number of Cat 1 academies, for good reason, they won't give them out willy nilly. In your area, you're competing with Southampton, Chelsea, Arsenal, Fulham and Watford for Cat 1. We (Southampton) from people I know at Cheltenham FC are going to be one of the few Cat 1 academies and that's pretty obvious why, you just have to look at our track record over the last 25 years. We are also currently improving our training facilities and academy facilities with an investment of £15million (on already top class facilities). That should be compeleted some time in the near future and will be to the highest spec in the UK and possibly europe.

Brighton may have decent facilities at some point, but they are a long, long way away. Then you have to have the coaching expertise and the track record, plus the continuous £2million+ investment annually. It's not impossible for Brighton to be Cat 1 in 15 years time (should EPPP still be running) but until then I believe cat 2 is the best that you can hope for which is still impressive.

Brighton has only applied for Cat 2 anyway, so thats there aim, it has no aspiration this year to attain Cat 1 nor could it.

The main criteria for attaining the relevant status is basically budget commitment.

Cat 2 is just under an annual budget of £1m, whilst Cat 1 ( the highest ) is something like a commitment of £1.5m.

 

[JJB]

Brighton has only applied for Cat 2 anyway, so thats there aim, it has no aspiration this year to attain Cat 1 nor could it.

The main criteria for attaining the relevant status is basically budget commitment.

Cat 2 is just under an annual budget of £1m, whilst Cat 1 ( the highest ) is something like a commitment of £1.5m.

In excess of £2million. I believe we already plough £3mill in as it is, but it will come down to more than just finance.

 

[BigGully]

In excess of £2million. I believe we already plough £3mill in as it is, but it will come down to more than just finance.

Yeah sorry, Cat 1 annual budget £2.35m, whilst our application for Cat 2 will commit to a minimum of just under a million annually.

However we have never ploughed in £3m as an annual budget on our Centre of Excellence or will for our new Academy status, but we will of course invest a significant amount in the new training academy.