What needs to be done to make England world beaters?

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think it's that scheme whereby youth systems are graded in one of four categories, and effectively higher-ranked ones can sign youngsters from lower-level ones for very little compensation. The Football League were effectively forced to adopt it by the Premier League threatening to withdraw their "solidarity payments" to the FL unless they did. From a selfish point of view, the good news is that our new facilities, when built, will be in the top grading.

Gotcha. But from my post above which skills will these new youth systems/academies be prioritising? As I mentioned most pro teams seem to play a percentage based game which puts ball retention some way down the list of desired attributes. To make it in a pro team in England you seem to need a very different set of skills to those practiced by most other leading nations and indeed our very own Brighton.

Brighton stand out because we are a team which wishes to play football. I'm very very grateful for this, but it is not right we should stand out from the rest.

 

[kano]

I was about to post about our national identity as a footballing nation and how we play the game before you quoted Rafa.

The most important thing is that we dont seem to have a plan....what are we trying to achieve? "more ball retention" is not a plan we need a system and a style of play that we are going to coach from a young age. For example look at fergies man united team. For literally 20 years they have had talented wingers breaking quickly and whipping balls into the box. Wenger has done it at arsenal. Gus is at the very start of the process with us.

What exactly are we aiming for with england?

 

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

As a qualified coach who works with children from 5-16 I believe changes are needed to make the role of a coach for young players a permanent role. All the time coaches are employed on a casual basis and not paid to put in the time needed to develop players properly they will struggle to do so. In France & Holland for example, the role of youth coach is a recognised job. And I'm not talking about academy level coaches. Until the role of youth coach is attractive enough to retain good quality coaches we will continue to lose the good coaches to senior roles where they can earn better money.

In my case I get paid an hourly rare only for the session that I deliver. I do not get paid to do any of the pre-session planning required. I do not get paid to carry out any post-session evaluation which is important to improve session quality and coaching ability. I do not even get paid for the time it takes me to set up the pitch and drills before the session and packing away at the end. All of this means that I have to do another job in an attempt to make ends meet and squeeze my coaching in around that job. Not an ideal situation. I try my best but the system doesn't make it easy for me.

My situation is far from unique. All the time we have unqualified dads (or mums) delivering coaching and the qualified coaches not given the recognition needed to do their job properly things will not change.

 

[BigGully]

As a qualified coach who works with children from 5-16 I believe changes are needed to make the role of a coach for young players a permanent role. All the time coaches are employed on a casual basis and not paid to put in the time needed to develop players properly they will struggle to do so. In France & Holland for example, the role of youth coach is a recognised job. And I'm not talking about academy level coaches. Until the role of youth coach is attractive enough to retain good quality coaches we will continue to lose the good coaches to senior roles where they can earn better money.

In my case I get paid an hourly rare only for the session that I deliver. I do not get paid to do any of the pre-session planning required. I do not get paid to carry out any post-session evaluation which is important to improve session quality and coaching ability. I do not even get paid for the time it takes me to set up the pitch and drills before the session and packing away at the end. All of this means that I have to do another job in an attempt to make ends meet and squeeze my coaching in around that job. Not an ideal situation. I try my best but the system doesn't make it easy for me.

My situation is far from unique. All the time we have unqualified dads (or mums) delivering coaching and the qualified coaches not given the recognition needed to do their job properly things will not change.

I dont fully understand what you are saying .....

Who exactly should be paying you more ?

Coaches working with elite youngsters do get paid a decent rate, however I do agree that maybe there needs to be more emphasise on the level of coaching delivered to the 8-12 age groups, rather than having the more senior coaches deliver sessions to the older age groups.

 

[itszamora]

Gotcha. But from my post above which skills will these new youth systems/academies be prioritising? As I mentioned most pro teams seem to play a percentage based game which puts ball retention some way down the list of desired attributes. To make it in a pro team in England you seem to need a very different set of skills to those practiced by most other leading nations and indeed our very own Brighton.

Brighton stand out because we are a team which wishes to play football. I'm very very grateful for this, but it is not right we should stand out from the rest.

You're right, and that's why I'm not convinced it'll be a great success, because as someone else has said, I think the main driver behind it was to allow the big clubs to get good young players cheaply. if a club's culture and style of play, as Rafa Benitez says, is built around possession, as ours is, and also Swansea, etc, then that's great. But it's not the way most teams in England play, and until they do we'll probably still be lagging behind.

Having said that, if the clubs are getting technically better players through their academies as a result of the FA's changes to youth football, perhaps they will see that style as more viable...

 

[withdeanwombat]

Nobble the opposition.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Having said that, if the clubs are getting technically better players through their academies as a result of the FA's changes to youth football, perhaps they will see that style as more viable...

This is the bit I cannot get my head around though. If a player shows any promise they are immediately hoovered up by a pro club i.e. the best young players are taken away at a young age and the rest of their coaching is dictated by the club's academy. And in turn I'm not convinced they get any genuine and/or specific one-to-one coaching at clubs. I saw some figures for the number of players on the books at the big clubs and it is ridiculous and also seems to be based on percentages i.e. sign up enough youngsters and one or two will come good i.e. they make it despite the system not because of it.

Only when the Prem, the FL and the FA are all on the same page and consistent coaching of very basic skills can be coordinated across all three platforms will we see a change. Until then we will continue to muddle through and have this very same conversation each and every time we get knocked out of a tournament by the first half decent team we meet.

 

[BigGully]

This is the bit I cannot get my head around though. If a player shows any promise they are immediately hoovered up by a pro club i.e. the best young players are taken away at a young age and the rest of their coaching is dictated by the club's academy. And in turn I'm not convinced they get any genuine and/or specific one-to-one coaching at clubs. I saw some figures for the number of players on the books at the big clubs and it is ridiculous and also seems to be based on percentages i.e. sign up enough youngsters and one or two will come good i.e. they make it despite the system not because of it.

Only when the Prem, the FL and the FA are all on the same page and consistent coaching of very basic skills can be coordinated across all three platforms will we see a change. Until then we will continue to muddle through and have this very same conversation each and every time we get knocked out of a tournament by the first half decent team we meet.

Agreed,

But its not necessarily the one-on-one coaching that is so critical it is the overall coaching that at times maybe just isnt good enough.

Up until the recent EPPP, you were to some extent at the mercy of a postcode lottery.

A stand out talent that maybe was born in Exeter, might only have access to that clubs training facilities and policies. ( assuming he signed there )

A bigger club could buy him, but that compensation could also prevent him accessing 'the best' coaching and facilities at another club due to that compensation issue.

In other countries any stand out talent would. irrespective of distance be invited in to one of their major clubs, accessing the best that country has to offer.

To some extent its elitist, but usually for the player its an advantage.

 

[itszamora]

This is the bit I cannot get my head around though. If a player shows any promise they are immediately hoovered up by a pro club i.e. the best young players are taken away at a young age and the rest of their coaching is dictated by the club's academy. And in turn I'm not convinced they get any genuine and/or specific one-to-one coaching at clubs. I saw some figures for the number of players on the books at the big clubs and it is ridiculous and also seems to be based on percentages i.e. sign up enough youngsters and one or two will come good i.e. they make it despite the system not because of it.

Only when the Prem, the FL and the FA are all on the same page and consistent coaching of very basic skills can be coordinated across all three platforms will we see a change. Until then we will continue to muddle through and have this very same conversation each and every time we get knocked out of a tournament by the first half decent team we meet.

Generally though, clubs don't sign players up till about 11 or 12 at youngest, right? I think the FA's plans are from about 7 onwards, so they hopefully will have all had 3 or 4 years' experience with the ball at their feet, getting comfortable with it, before the professional clubs sign them up. And then, the FA's plans still apply, so it's smaller-sided games and the link for however long it is, rather than the current absurdity of kids of 11 or 12 playing on full-size pitches in a competitive environment, which will obviously reward physicality over technique.

 

[BigGully]

Generally though, clubs don't sign players up till about 11 or 12 at youngest, right? I think the FA's plans are from about 7 onwards, so they hopefully will have all had 3 or 4 years' experience with the ball at their feet, getting comfortable with it, before the professional clubs sign them up. And then, the FA's plans still apply, so it's smaller-sided games and the link for however long it is, rather than the current absurdity of kids of 11 or 12 playing on full-size pitches in a competitive environment, which will obviously reward physicality over technique.

Nope, there is quite a scramble to sign players from the age of 7, although technically you cannot formally register player until 9 years old.

Before the current EPPP the compensation issue encouraged clubs to sign more and more, younger and younger, just in case there was interest from other clubs and even average elite players could be subject to a fee if signed by another club.

Most of what you are saying was already implemented by the old structure.

 

[Storer 68]

Eeeeeeeeeess ssssssssimples!

Score more goals than the opposition

But look at the England team that is around now. How many of them are now first choices at their clubs? Not many. The important positions , at the big clubs are now filled by an international multitude. How many european clubs come knocking on English clubs door for players? Very few if any. And when they do, they are not interested in the english players because their technical ability is not what is required.

We all thought Zamora was the bees knees as a goalscorer when we had him, but he hadly tore up the turf at the highest level. Discarded afer a few months at Spurs, a few caps and he ends up at small to middlin clubs like West Ham, Fulham and QPR

 

[Scoffers]

Nobble the opposition.

After looking at Italy's failure to find the net on Sunday in normal or extra time, despite some *very* good chances, you do wonder whether some of them were "nobbled" or just poor finishers

 

[BensGrandad]

2 Moves needed.

1. Get Pepe Guardola as manager before Chelsea do.
2. Stop dads who think they know more than Sir Alex running children football teams and teaching them tactics when they should be getting comfortable on the ball and leave it qualified coaches.

I remember years ago when my sons were young the played for Epsom Eagles and at 8 years old they were being taught the offside trap when I turned up at a training session and not one of them could kick a ball properly. I then offered a can of coke to any body who could kick the ball out of the penalty area from the goal line and gave away 2 cans. That is the root of the problem

 

[peterward]

I dont fully understand what you are saying .....

Who exactly should be paying you more ?

Coaches working with elite youngsters do get paid a decent rate, however I do agree that maybe there needs to be more emphasise on the level of coaching delivered to the 8-12 age groups, rather than having the more senior coaches deliver sessions to the older age groups.

herein is our Biggest shortfall. We have Only 2,769 English coaches who hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges.

Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790

its not rocket science, its been an FA that's content to enjoy their well paid long lunches and just change the manager every few years.

Our grass roots structure is under resourced

 

[Albion Rob]

I haven't had chance to read all the posts but my thoughts/prejudices below:

1. We need to teach out players to move more intelligently and create angles. Watcht eh Spanish, they play a ball, they move, they create an angle. Watch out players, they play a pass then they stand there admiring it. It's a pretty simple thing, make space, create angles and recieve the ball. If our players moved like the Spanish they'd find they had a lot more time on the ball.

2. The Premier League is killing English players. It might be bloody exciting but really, how are players like Josh McEacheron ever going to compete at the highest level if their own experience of CL football in dead rubbera and they make about 6 sub appearances a season in the EPL. Also, how many england players could we genuinely say are in the top two or three players for their clubs? Rooney possibly. Gerrard possibly. Cole and Hart are excellent in my view but not in the best three at their clubs. I suspect that players like Young are made to look good by their club mates and then when they play in a weaker England side they are found out.

3. Let's also admit (and lament) the fact that we're in a little bit of a rut talent wise while spain are having a glorious era. That Spanish side is a once in a generation thing and we shouldn't feel too bad about not measuring up. Hopefully, and if given the right experience, players like Wilshere and Oxlade-Chamberlain will be part of a better generation of English players who have ball skills and clever minds to create the aforementioned angles.

4. Which brings me to my fourth point - we don't have any genuinely skillful players. We have players who can run fast and we have players who can (allegedly) knock a 60 yard pass but we don't have anyone who can play a sort of Gazza role - take on a couple of players in the midfield and then create space that way. Joe Cole was skillful but had no pace. Theo Walcott is quick but not tricky. I like what I've seen of Wilshere and Oxlade-Chamberlain in terms of being able to beat people. I remember as a kid soloing was frowned upon, I think it's time it came back. Let's let our kids be skillful and then coach the passing in to them - got to be better than hoofball, surely.

Overall, I think we've had a 'golden generation' who looked great when playing for very good club sides but were generally carried to a greater or lesser degree by their foreign team mates. That won't change significantly until we see more English players in the EPL but I hope things will improve as younger, quicker, more skillful players replace the slow show ponies whose Hollywood passing was made to look exquisite in the Premier League by talented international forwards but when they tired it on the international stage it just looked stupid.

Pace, angle and skill, that's what will help us. Oh, and we desperately need an instinctive striker in the Lineker/Owen mould. Wayne Rooney is definitely not that player.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

And what will change? I guarantee you we will have this same discussion every 2 years for the foreseeable future.

 

[SK1NT]

So much work... seems like i will never see a decent England side in my lifetime.

1990 was for me the best team in my lifetime. Should have won then... That semi final loss still hurts.

 

[peterward]

I haven't had chance to read all the posts but my thoughts/prejudices below:

1. We need to teach out players to move more intelligently and create angles. Watcht eh Spanish, they play a ball, they move, they create an angle. Watch out players, they play a pass then they stand there admiring it. It's a pretty simple thing, make space, create angles and recieve the ball. If our players moved like the Spanish they'd find they had a lot more time on the ball.

I read all of your good and valid points, all of which are the results of our inept structure, point 1 sums it up.

We don't have enough pro coaches with Uefa and pro badges. Spain has just over 400K pro and amateur players playing from barca down to kids sunday league and 23000 coaches thats 1 pro coach for every 17 players. italy has 1 pro coach for every 43 players, france and Germany just above and below 1 coach per 100 players.

In England we have 2743 pro coaches compared to Germanys 34000. We have 2.5 million registered league players from Man U down to local area kids sunday league. Thats 1 pro coach for every 834 players.

How can we ever be like spain when we have 5 times as many registered players playing, potentially 5 times as much potential talent but 9 times fewer pro coaches than spain.

Spain 1 pro coach per 17 players. England 1 pro coach per 834 players. The FA needs to massively increase pro coaching numbers, compel clubs (to retain their licences) they must train x number of pro coaches rather than blow it all on wages for the top 1%. Then we may see change

 

[BigGully]

Our grass roots structure is under resourced

But is it ??

The Academies, ours too, seems to be awash with money and many local football youth teams are well resourced and seem to have to fight off the senior sides that want to get their hands on the healthy bank balances of those younger teams.

We generally have access to decent training facilities and you can't move for mini hurdles, slalom poles and matching tracksuits, yet still the comparatively poorer continents offer players that are deemed better technicians than what we have.

Its a deeper cultural thing that I am not sure we can shake off anytime soon.

 

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