[Cricket] West Indies v England 3rd (and crucial) test official thread

[Eeyore]

I think Broad is a great option. Brearley wasn’t captain until 34/35 I don’t think. Root had it to early imho. It also doesn’t seem like a very welcoming environment for new players to come into, and dropping the likes of Broad and Anderson because you want to make a statement about a fresh start just seems ludicrous.

At this point we don’t need a long term plan, we need to win a red ball test series, preferably the next one. Then start to reshape. Whatever is going on, Root appears to be part of the problem in terms of running the team.

If they want to look outwith, then Will Rhodes at Warwickshire would be an option. Quality all-rounder, and Warwicks won the title under him last year.

Mind you, they could recall Brearley. Wouldn't make much difference to the top order.

 

[Eeyore]

The Cricketer: The surrender on Grenada: A new low for English cricket - George Dobell.
https://www.thecricketer.com/Topics...r_on_grenada_new_low_for_english_cricket.html

It does feel like a fast food article that doesn't deal with the complexities.

I love Test cricket and the longer format. But I'm resigning myself to the feeling that the sun is setting. Cricket is no longer cricket. And folk need to understand that whilst the kiss me quick format has helped many to earn a decent living, they are a minority.

 

[OzMike]

Shocking, forgotten the basics.
Back to the drawing board.

 

[Pavilionaire]

England test woes go beyond replacing any individual in any one position, on or off the field. This is about having the infrastructure in place that can produce top quality test match cricketers, and while the 4- day is marginalised and trivialised by the ECB England will continue to disappoint.

I think we are already past the point of no return. The Hundred competition went a step too far, sacrificing county identity for meaningless regional outfits. The subtext here is sinister; merging counties in white ball cricket as a prelude to a merger in red ball cricket.

I think they've got it the wrong way round; I think the public would buy a merger of counties in the 4 day game if it meant a strong England team, provided they could watch their county play in white ball cricket.

 

[South west gull]

England test woes go beyond replacing any individual in any one position, on or off the field. This is about having the infrastructure in place that can produce top quality test match cricketers, and while the 4- day is marginalised and trivialised by the ECB England will continue to disappoint.

I think we are already past the point of no return. The Hundred competition went a step too far, sacrificing county identity for meaningless regional outfits. The subtext here is sinister; merging counties in white ball cricket as a prelude to a merger in red ball cricket.

I think they've got it the wrong way round; I think the public would buy a merger of counties in the 4 day game if it meant a strong England team, provided they could watch their county play in white ball cricket.

No cricket fan would ever support a merger between 1 county and another.sussex merging with Kent Hampshire Surrey or an other you are joking.

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[Pavilionaire]

No cricket fan would ever support a merger between 1 county and another.sussex merging with Kent Hampshire Surrey or an other you are joking.

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I agree that it is unpalatable but with county finances in a bad way, two clear tiers between the haves and the have nots and the current system not producing quality test players something drastic has to happen.

I would suggest the split into two divisions has not produced the level of quality in that top division to prepare players for the elite level. There are good cricketers but they are playing with rubbish players in zero pressure matches shoe horned in around one day matches and tests.

 

[Simster]

No cricket fan would ever support a merger between 1 county and another.sussex merging with Kent Hampshire Surrey or an other you are joking.

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I think he's right. The county system simply doesn't work as it stands.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

No cricket fan would ever support a merger between 1 county and another.sussex merging with Kent Hampshire Surrey or an other you are joking.

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I think he is right.

I consider myself as a casual watcher, I enjoy all the formats and go to a few games a season

I didn’t watch much more than half a game of the hundred as it wasn’t Sussex, however if it was 4 day stuff and it was South East Cricket I would be interested.

It would be a higher standard to enjoy and feeding into the England Cricket team.

4 Day cricket in Div 2 is pretty poor.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's difficult isn't it.

You want a collection of counties that struggle with finances to prioritise a version of a game they make the least from. They are of course funded by the money raised from test cricket, but that is detached from the funds they run with their own success in white ball competitions.

Unless you are one of the cricketers that make it in and around the England Test squad, why would you not be developing every skill possible with a white ball rather than a red one. It would be a daft career decision to prioritise an unlikely England call up with what you can earn for clubs and franchises with a white ball.

This must apply to other countries as well though, but they seem to be developing their test sides to also evolve, ditching the traditional stereotypes of openers, and the top order. There appears to be more of a freedom to have a dash but have a middle order that can dig in rather than our model of seeking openers that stay there for a session or two, then the middle order start scoring - these seem like old concepts for test sides that are progressing.

 

[keaton]

All of the Championship and a lot of the Premier League are losing money maybe we should start merging football teams?

 

[Gwylan]

I agree that it is unpalatable but with county finances in a bad way, two clear tiers between the haves and the have nots and the current system not producing quality test players something drastic has to happen.

The county system was doing fine about a dozen years ago when we hammered Australia and India home and away.

We have an absolutely identical set-up to Australia in terms of first-class teams per head of population. So, the basics are right, but something's gone radically wrong in the way things operate.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The county system was doing fine about a dozen years ago when we hammered Australia and India home and away.

We have an absolutely identical set-up to Australia in terms of first-class teams per head of population. So, the basics are right, but something's gone radically wrong in the way things operate.

I agree, but a dozen years is a long time. It is clear Strauss and Cook were papering over cracks with the batting and now we see Broad and Anderson were doing so too with the bowling.

Sheffield Shield cricket has always been more intense because with only 6 teams you have a quarter of the players are current test players, a quarter are former test players and a quarter are the best young players in Australia being groomed for the test side.

 

[rippleman]

We have been fortunate to have had at least one opener who is a shoe-in for decades:

Gooch, Atherton, Strauss, Cook

We no longer have a top quality opener and have tried various mix & match with no real success. Is this because the better quality is now focussing on white ball, and in particular franchise cricket. Probably. If you want Test match cricketers you need to be paying them what they could earn in franchise cricket - and the counties are never going to be able to afford that.

The players recognise that they can earn as much in 2/3 years of playing franchise cricket around the world as they could playing a decade or more at county / Test level.

The crowds show up for T20 / ODI / franchise cricket both domestic and international. How many souls turn up to watch county cricket?

Test cricket is on a slippery slope. Not just here but even in Oz where they struggle to sell out Test matches (exception being the Ashes).

The players can earn a really good living playing white ball cricket. The paying punters turn out for white ball cricket. There is only so long you can carry on flogging a dead horse.

 

[vegster]

Root apparently still thinks he can do a job as captain despite the results ! Ffs, does no one do the decent thing anymore in politics or sport ?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Root apparently still thinks he can do a job as captain despite the results ! Ffs, does no one do the decent thing anymore in politics or sport ?

If the selectors pick Broad and Anderson we probably win that series and Root turns the tide. However, the whole thing is inter-connected: we sack the hapless Silverwood and things get worse.

Part of me doesn't want to put Stokes through the inevitable shit he will get as captain of this poor side, but then again it will take 4 or 5 years for a crop of players to emerge who have the skills and we can't carry on like this.

 

[Springal]

All of the Championship and a lot of the Premier League are losing money maybe we should start merging football teams?

But most have rich investors who prop them up and keep them going. County Cricket doesn't.

Pocket change for Tony Bloom though if he was so inclined

 

[Gwylan]

I agree, but a dozen years is a long time. It is clear Strauss and Cook were papering over cracks with the batting and now we see Broad and Anderson were doing so too with the bowling.

Sheffield Shield cricket has always been more intense because with only 6 teams you have a quarter of the players are current test players, a quarter are former test players and a quarter are the best young players in Australia being groomed for the test side.

That England side had Strauss, Cook, Trott, Prior, Pietersen, Bell,Swann, Anderson and Broad - that's not just a couple of players papering over the cracks, that's a pretty decent team, all produced by county cricket (OK, KP was half produced). The team that were hammered in Australia still had Root, Stokes, Broad, Wood and Anderson - all excellent cricketers.

There are some big differences between Australia and England, notably the way the population is split. There are only five really big cities and most of the population live there (or very close to those cities). There's also Hobart which isn't big but is out on its own for Shield purposes. It's not so easy to do the same thing in the UK.

Let's imagine we cut the Championship down to eight clubs: Kent is part of Surry and Sussex is part of Hampshire. Kids play cricket at their clubs but, what happens when they're 14,15 and need to be tested at another level? How would Ollie Robinson in Margate or Mike Yardy in Hastings fare if they had to travel to The Oval or to Southampton to go up a level? The answer is that they wouldn't.

As I said, we have exactly the same ratio as Australia has when it comes to population. They have a system that allows for how that population is divided and so do we. We just need to make better use of it

 

[Bold Seagull]

That England side had Strauss, Cook, Trott, Prior, Pietersen, Bell,Swann, Anderson and Broad - that's not just a couple of players papering over the cracks, that's a pretty decent team, all produced by county cricket (OK, KP was half produced). The team that were hammered in Australia still had Root, Stokes, Broad, Wood and Anderson - all excellent cricketers.

There are some big differences between Australia and England, notably the way the population is split. There are only five really big cities and most of the population live there (or very close to those cities). There's also Hobart which isn't big but is out on its own for Shield purposes. It's not so easy to do the same thing in the UK.

Let's imagine we cut the Championship down to eight clubs: Kent is part of Surry and Sussex is part of Hampshire. Kids play cricket at their clubs but, what happens when they're 14,15 and need to be tested at another level? How would Ollie Robinson in Margate or Mike Yardy in Hastings fare if they had to travel to The Oval or to Southampton to go up a level? The answer is that they wouldn't.

As I said, we have exactly the same ratio as Australia has when it comes to population. They have a system that allows for how that population is divided and so do we. We just need to make better use of it

We also get stuck in traditional ways of thinking - India, New Zealand and Australia's approach to opening the batting and top order is different to ours. We appear to still be looking for the next opening pair who take the shine off the ball for 30 or 40 overs so the runs can be scored by the middle order. Other teams go at scoring runs from the off, then have more of a strategy of putting the brakes on if it goes wrong. Even if we start well, we have never added enough runs for losing wickets not to be a problem for the those coming in to panic.

I think we are sending out opening pair after opening pair to bat like Cook and Strauss, and perhaps the likes of Cook you just aren't producing anymore. India weren't afraid to experiment at the top of their order with 15 different pairs in 5 years - they then started thinking a bit differently and decided to throw Rohit Sharma up top to see how he got on - like Warner for Australia, he didn't really fit your template for your traditional opener, but has flourished.

So I agree with all the statements about what country cricket produces, but there is also evolving what your test team looks like in response to the players, not fitting players into the way you think your test team has to play. The batting collapses keeping pointing toward batsmen being sent out to play in a way not suited to their strengths or instincts. That to me comes from management and the captain.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

That England side had Strauss, Cook, Trott, Prior, Pietersen, Bell,Swann, Anderson and Broad - that's not just a couple of players papering over the cracks, that's a pretty decent team, all produced by county cricket (OK, KP was half produced). The team that were hammered in Australia still had Root, Stokes, Broad, Wood and Anderson - all excellent cricketers.

There are some big differences between Australia and England, notably the way the population is split. There are only five really big cities and most of the population live there (or very close to those cities). There's also Hobart which isn't big but is out on its own for Shield purposes. It's not so easy to do the same thing in the UK.

Let's imagine we cut the Championship down to eight clubs: Kent is part of Surry and Sussex is part of Hampshire. Kids play cricket at their clubs but, what happens when they're 14,15 and need to be tested at another level? How would Ollie Robinson in Margate or Mike Yardy in Hastings fare if they had to travel to The Oval or to Southampton to go up a level? The answer is that they wouldn't.

As I said, we have exactly the same ratio as Australia has when it comes to population. They have a system that allows for how that population is divided and so do we. We just need to make better use of it

I imagine the counties would have academies in the areas?

How does it work in Australia? The states are pretty large - is the level below the Sheffield Shield better than the English Version? Do they all field into the State team?

The top players will still find a way.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

All of the Championship and a lot of the Premier League are losing money maybe we should start merging football teams?

Wouldn’t merge them, but there is a valid argument to cut the number of professional clubs and regionalise it.