Was Israel right/justified in blowing up Ahmed Yassin ?

[Easy 10]

Interesting how this assasination was internationally condemned by just about everyone...except the USA. Condoleeza Rice has instead "urged restraint" (cheers Leeza, great help and wise words), while Bush himself has so far said nothing.

I think Creased Shirt has it spot on. A lot of innocent people are going to die in the inevitable revenge attacks now.

 

[Northstander]

i dont think he was the israeli anything. looks decidely palestinian to me

HAHAHA I think your right

 

[Spiros]

While I symapthise with Israel wanting another Hamas activist out of the way, they go about it in such a heavy-handed way that they make the Yanks look subtle. The rocket attacks launched by the Israelis usually manage to take out a number of women and children as well as the target they are after.

Imagine the world outcry if our troops had used the same tactics to go after the IRA. In the end we have a hope of peace of a sort in Northern Ireland while the Israelis prove that they are just as bad as the terrorists they are 'defending' themselves against. They also face open-ended hostility from most (if not all) of the Moslem world.

Blowing up the likes of Yassin achieve nothing except to make the problem worse.

 

[Dandyman]

It's just the general feeling I get. It's ok to have a go at Muslim fundamentalists but if anyone points teh finger at Jews then you must be a Nazi.

Basically traditionally Jews have been a bunch of nomades with no country to call their own . Therefore they have been persecuted throughout the centuries as no one wanted them on their doorstep. After the war it was decide that in our greta wisdom we'd simply give them Isreal as that is the holy land from where they are from. Totally disregarding the fact that there are also Musilms that also regard this land as their own already and also consider the land to be just as holy. Isrealies no consider it their right to occupy this holy land and basically tell all the Muslims to piss off. They even put up illegal settlements on Muslim land.

It's bit like saying at the end of the war calling Wales the new Isreal. Fair enough you may think. They then start spreading their wings a bit and start setting up home in Bristol etc. What about he Welsh people who have lived there for generations? Wouldn't they feel a bit pissed off?

It's also a bit like the Northen Ireland situation. Scottish Protestant settlers taking all the best jobs etc. America sided with the IRA in that case. This time they've sided with Isreal. 1) because they help to set it up 2) There are a lot of high ranking Jews in America pulling the strings and not too many Muslims.

Where to start with this one ? Israel's policy of extra- judicial killings is clearly an affront to international law and as other have already said will only further destabilise the region.

There are, however, a number of other statements in your posting that, IMHO, are both untrue and highly offensive.

Jews are not a nomadic people. The Jewish presence in Europe goes back to, at least, Roman days. The Jews of pre-war Germany were in fact probably the most assimilated in Europe.

The Balfour Declaration which gave British support to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was made at the end of the First World War. It was, in fact, opposed by the only Jewish member of the government of the day who saw it as undermining the position of Jews in their existing countries. The support of the British establishment for the Zionist idea was mainly based on the concept of what was described as a "loyal little Ulster" in the Middle East.

The US support for Israel is based on a view of the US' strategic interests in the area. The idea of some shadowy Jewish conspiracy directing American foreign policy is frankly bollocks.

There are many Jews both within Israel and in the wider world who are massively against the actions of the war criminal who is currently iIsraeli Prime Minister. There is also a growing, although still small, number of Jews who would like Israel/Palestine to become a single democratic country of both Jews and Arabs.

 

[Lammy]

Where to start with this one ? Israel's policy of extra- judicial killings is clearly an affront to international law and as other have already said will only further destabilise the region.

There are, however, a number of other statements in your posting that, IMHO, are both untrue and highly offensive.

Jews are not a nomadic people. The Jewish presence in Europe goes back to, at least, Roman days. The Jews of pre-war Germany were in fact probably the most assimilated in Europe.

The Balfour Declaration which gave British support to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine was made at the end of the First World War. It was, in fact, opposed by the only Jewish member of the government of the day who saw it as undermining the position of Jews in their existing countries. The support of the British establishment for the Zionist idea was mainly based on the concept of what was described as a "loyal little Ulster" in the Middle East.

The US support for Israel is based on a view of the US' strategic interests in the area. The idea of some shadowy Jewish conspiracy directing American foreign policy is frankly bollocks.

There are many Jews both within Israel and in the wider world who are massively against the actions of the war criminal who is currently iIsraeli Prime Minister. There is also a growing, although still small, number of Jews who would like Israel/Palestine to become a single democratic country of both Jews and Arabs.

When I said nomadic I didn't literally mean wandering people. Mearly a people that had no offiial Jewish state to call their own.

I don;t believe for a minute that the USA support for Isreal is strategic in the slightest.

If there are so many Jews in Isreal that would like a single democratic state of both Muslim and Arab then they are keeping bloody quite about it! Why aren't they marching etc?

Whatever reason you give, USA are funding an illegal war on Palastine. How the hell can they justify killing a terrorist with rockets!?!?!?!

 

[looney]

Only winners have Matyrs and they no longer need them.

Virtually all states are man mad, even some of the Island variety.


Hamas are Nazis, yep I would do the same.

I dont like sharon but I see what he's doing. Cream the top layer of a terrorist org and keep doing it will lead to less experianced and disciplind leaders, which leads to splits, infighting and more prone to tactical error. after all that happened to the IRA in the past before the loss of nerve in the political class. I'm pretty sure that if the IRA had adopted a more genocidal approach then a policy like this would unfold.

It will have a psycological effect on the enemy as well in the long term.

Yea I approve.

 

[Simster]

I don;t believe for a minute that the USA support for Isreal is strategic in the slightest.

You don't really believe that, surely?

Have a look at UN resolutions over the past 3 decades. Whenever the US has come up with self serving, crappy resolutions, you'll find the entire world votes against them except the Brits (who invariably abstain or in favour with the US) and Israel who ALWAYS do what they're told.

In return for this (and acts as a base for the US whenever they decide to go to war with the arab nutter of the day), Israel gets a truck load of arms, grenades and billions of dollars. Our reward is of course the "special relationship" where America gets another vote of confidence and we get laughed at by the rest of Europe for acting as its poodle for no reward whatsoever.

 

[looney]

Whatever reason you give, USA are funding an illegal war on Palastine. How the hell can they justify killing a terrorist with rockets!?!?!?!

Who says its illeagal? The Racist Jack straw?

If you ever get to read the Geneva convention on the Articles of war you will find that Suicide bombings that deliberatley target civilians are illeagal.

Thats the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist, its also international law.

 

[Lammy]

You don't really believe that, surely?

Have a look at UN resolutions over the past 3 decades. Whenever the US has come up with self serving, crappy resolutions, you'll find the entire world votes against them except the Brits (who invariably abstain or in favour with the US) and Israel who ALWAYS do what they're told.

In return for this (and acts as a base for the US whenever they decide to go to war with the arab nutter of the day), Israel gets a truck load of arms, grenades and billions of dollars. Our reward is of course the "special relationship" where America gets another vote of confidence and we get laughed at by the rest of Europe for acting as its poodle for no reward whatsoever.

That might have been the reasons behind setting up the state in the first place but I don't believe (although I agree it is a factor) that this is the driving force behind their continuiong support.

Geographically, Isreal is not so important as America has other, better positioned allies in teh middle east a la Saudi, Kuwait and Turkey (the best position of all).

Politacally they have proved that they don't give a toss what the UN says as they are willing to go ahead and do whatever they want regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[Simster]

Only winners have Matyrs and they no longer need them.

Virtually all states are man mad, even some of the Island variety.


Hamas are Nazis, yep I would do the same.

I dont like sharon but I see what he's doing. Cream the top layer of a terrorist org and keep doing it will lead to less experianced and disciplind leaders, which leads to splits, infighting and more prone to tactical error. after all that happened to the IRA in the past before the loss of nerve in the political class. I'm pretty sure that if the IRA had adopted a more genocidal approach then a policy like this would unfold.

It will have a psycological effect on the enemy as well in the long term.

Yea I approve.

I think you'd need to hit a lot more than one wheel chair bound goon for your theory to work, Looney. And I won't argue your "man-made state" theory, but surely you can see that Israel is an island race surrounded by arabs. They need to learn to get on with their neighbours, unless they're happy to live with the constant threat of violence.

 

[looney]

In return for this (and acts as a base for the US whenever they decide to go to war with the arab nutter of the day), Israel gets a truck load of arms, grenades and billions of dollars. Our reward is of course the "special relationship" where America gets another vote of confidence and we get laughed at by the rest of Europe for acting as its poodle for no reward whatsoever.

Talking bollocks again simster?


Name some "self serving" resolutions? Do you include national defence as self serving?

In return for this (and acts as a base for the US whenever they decide to go to war with the arab nutter of the day), Israel gets a truck load of arms, grenades and billions of dollars. Our reward is of course the "special relationship" where America gets another vote of confidence and we get laughed at by the rest of Europe for acting as its poodle for no reward whatsoever.

Their are no US bases in Isreal neither do they launch attacks from Isreal. Isreal Manufacture most there weopons(for example the Kfir fighter) and import the rest mainly from Germany.


sorry haven't met a European laughing at us let alone all of them.

Oh and there are plenty of rewards but your to jaundiced to see them.

 

[lincs seagull]

The only way i see it is that all roads lead to the US as said before they fund the israel to fight Hamas

ok it follows the stance that they have on terror but they are the onces who started this you can not take another countrys land and give it to another creed of people and expect everone to sit pretty and live together it has never worked.

yugoslavia is the best example created after the first war with countrys that hate each other.

Isreal is worse as they sit slap bang in the most relgious area for all religions and people will fight for it.

The Americans use isreal as a platform to launch there ideals on the muslim world Mcdonalds etc move in.
and with backing from the strongest power Isreal get away with any thing the thing that i was shocked by was the us quote on the assaination

THEY WERE DEPPLY TROUBLED well what does that mean beats me.

Isreal are so cocky about the yanks that they call an assination killing someone with a helicoper gun ship most countrys would do it with a sniper

I dot approve of terrorism but you can see why muslim sects want to destroy the us and it allies.

the us do them self no favours and contadict there stance,

i hope bush gets his balls nailed to the wall over the war with iraq

 

[Publius Ovidius]

On balance I would say Yes, in the same way I would say Yes if the question of killing Bin Laden came up.

Lets face it, the Israeli's live with terror every day of the week, we do not. If they were 100% convinced that this man was directing the suicide bombers through Hammas, then they are justified under international law to protect themselves and they believe that he is and they have!

Looking at the wider picture, it will probably lead to an increase in attacks and "innocent" civilians will die, but innocent civilians are dieing anyway.

In the old days, wars were fought between armies wearing uniforms so you knew who you were fighting. Now they are fought between nations and men and women who carry belts with explosives on them, ruck sack bombs controlled by mobile phones all wanting to kill as many civilians as possible.

It is a very dangerous world to live in

 

[looney]

I think you'd need to hit a lot more than one wheel chair bound goon for your theory to work, Looney

Thats what I said and thats what they are doing, attacking the top layers etc.



but surely you can see that Israel is an island race surrounded by arabs. They need to learn to get on with their neighbours, unless they're happy to live with the constant threat of violence.

Pray tell me, how are you supposed to get along with people who are swarn to drive you all into the sea"? .The Israeli left have tried to negotiate a peace deal and it hasn't worked because they haven't stopped being attacked. That policy failed so the isreali people elected sharon to do the job.

lincs gull
I dot approve of terrorism but you can see why muslim sects want to destroy the us and it allies.

Well no I dont "see" that, Having had first hand experiance with Islamic exstemists I can tell you they want a lot more than that. A global Kalifa and the death or conversion of all infedels which is a islamic obligation, but given a fundementalist twist by the exstremists.

Blairs speach the other day was 100% right.

 

[Simster]

I haven't got time to counteract your drivel looney, so I've just provided a link to a google search with a few key words that more than back up my point regarding the US and Israel in the UN.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=un+resolutions+israel+usa+vote&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=

Specifically I'll draw your attention to this link
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

Which shows a list of recent US vetoes in the UN.

I can't be arsed to trawl through 12 pages of google search, but I'm fairly sure that if someone else has got time, they can find a few examples of self serving american resolutions and vetoes where they have relied upon solely the support of Israel (and maybe ourselves).



If you want an example of talking bollocks, just re-read your first post on this thread. A less relevent and more bollock-strewn passage, you'll be pushed to find (although I do have 2 or 3 people on ignore)

 

[sullyupthewing]

yep blow the scum off the face of the earth, cos given the chance they will do the same to you, bloody camel shunters.
I

Sorry not my thoughts, made the fatal mistake of staying logged in to NSC and left my work area, It can be deleted if you wish.

 

[Meade's Ball]

Israel spend their time looking to de-humanise the Palestinians and destroy any fight any of them have, whether they be terrorists or not. Just look at the wall that's been built. Some people have to go through checkpoints to use their own toilets.

I'm not really sure about the extent of Zionist conspiracy, but it is a shocking state of affairs when the US cannot condemn segregation and murder.
In fact, that ought to be no shock at all.

 

[Spiros]

The Israeli left have tried to negotiate a peace deal and it hasn't worked because they haven't stopped being attacked. That policy failed so the isreali people elected sharon to do the job.

I'm not sure that the Israeli politicians have ever given peace any kind of chance. These attacks come from a hardcore of committed extremists. Responding to them justifies their actions. The best route is to hunt them out in the way a policeman tracks down a criminal, not by laying waste to a whole neighbourhood of innocent people - all that does is create the next wave of fanatics.

OK, so the actions of the suicide bombers are illegal, but then so are the actions of Israel. Any peace-loving sovereign state should not resort to these kind of actions. It just creates the impression - rightly or wrongly - that Israel merely wants to drive the Palestinians into the sea. If they took a softer line it would be easier to see who the good guys are (if indeed there are any)

 

[lincs seagull]

lincs gull
I dot approve of terrorism but you can see why muslim sects want to destroy the us and it allies.

Well no I dont "see" that, Having had first hand experiance with Islamic exstemists I can tell you they want a lot more than that. A global Kalifa and the death or conversion of all infedels which is a islamic obligation, but given a fundementalist twist by the exstremists.

Blairs speach the other day was 100% right. [/B]

i dont think you understand my point i dont agree with either side on whats going on but the us make a rod for there own back to be seen highly visable in there full support of the anti muslim world.

this is what the view of muslims i work with who are not nutters with bombs to them just saddend by all the violence.

If that is a peace loving view then thats why they get attacked buy the more extreme. the us do them self no favours attacking iraq yes a bully in the world has gone but iraq will have some one else in charge in the future willing to stick to fingers up to the west thats the way it is.

isreal are in a vicious circle tit for tat which escalates in to hell on earth with no side in the right the circle must be broken but when there are people who are profiting from this in high places it will never happen.

 

[Locky]

Simple .... NO!!
No one has the right to take a life ................. whatever they may be guilty of.