"War on Terrorism" - is it hopeless ?

[readingstockport]

Deal.

To go back to the first post in this thread, I too am depressed and worried. I fear worse is to come

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

My bugger off was directed at AP and his unnecessary condecending patrionising reponse to my thread about the " lone voice " but I have to conclude you are much more intelligent and use much longer words than me. Therefore obviously you are right. Sorry.

 

[US Seagull]

Oh no, not at all. I don't know about North Carolina but I have seen some ridiculous things in other places. The legal system is a joke, the Police incredibly stupid, a non existant health system for many, possibly the worst social services, in the Western World, undoubtedly the worst education system in the Western World, a fundermental lack of gun control and religious fundamentalists who are totally out of touch with reality.

There are a few other things, 15% of the population living below the poverty line, 1% of the population in jail (that's about 3000 000 people, higher than any other country in the world). Shall I go on ?

Frankly, it's biggest problem is the insularity of what seems to be the majority of the population. And let's face it, the country is run by a president who didn't even win the election.

Yep, it's pretty f***ed up like I say.

I agree with most, in fact possibily all (except maybe about education) of what you say, but I don't think that makes the US particularly more f***ed up than anywhere else. Everywhere has problems and nowhere is perfect. I know you have your own personal reasons for holding your opinions on the US, but don't let your night in an INS holding cell or your experience at the ass end of Georgia and Texas color your view of a whole and diverse country. There are many things that are wrong, many more than I'd like, but there are many good things and many good people here. If you seriously hate the place so much you might really want to do some soul searching and decide if your wife is really worth it (I hope you don't take offense at that, none was intended). All assuming they actually let you back in again.
Having said all that, if Bush wins again, I might seriously need to reconsider my own position here. Canada may be calling me....

 

[bhaexpress]

So what, AP uses big words. All well and good but does actually know what he's talking about ?

Whatever, these threads always degenerate into pro and anti American viiewpoints. I'm biased sometimes to be pro USA for obvious reasons but then again on some issues I am fevently anti.

There is some substance to anti west feeling amongst moselms but frankly a lot of what has happened is a direct result of fundermentalists using the more cryptic passages of the Koran to justify Jihad.

Just like fundermentalist Christians do with the Bible in fact.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

My strong belief is that Al Queda are a bunch of sick, stupid, brainwashed murderers that bottom line, like killing people. They try and disguise it with tapes of the Koran but I would have more respect for them if they said " We did it because we like blowing people up ".

Don;t try and give justification to them or reasons as there are none.

 

[bhaexpress]

My strong belief is that Al Queda are a bunch of sick, stupid, brainwashed murderers that bottom line, like killing people. They try and disguise it with tapes of the Koran but I would have more respect for them if they said " We did it because we like blowing people up ".

Don;t try and give justification to them or reasons as there are none.

Hmm, true enough but look at the history of the Christian world. Small matters like the Holy Wars of the middle ages, the Spanish Inquisition and various other barberous acts are part of the issue. The fact that the West (in the guise of mainly the US admittedly) support the suppresion of the Palestinians by the Isrealies is also a fact.

You see, I agree that terrorism will not solve anything but it's clear that the likes of Al Queda see that as the only way to grab our attention. Well okay, they would like to kill all westerners too. But what do you do ? Declare war on Islam ? Well, I'm sure the Hindus and the Sikhs wouldn't have much of a problem with that. Of course the polictically correct and the misled, (there's a difference ?) would though.

 

[goldstone]

As long as we keep interfering in other countries' (particularly Arab) internal affairs (e.g. Iraq) and until we are seen to support a more even-handed approach to the Israeli/Palestine problem, then we can expect Islamic extremists to target us.

We should immediately butt out of other countries' business.

If there is an Al Quaeda attack in the UK Tony Blair will be entirely to blame.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I do question strongly the anti USA vitriol generally on NSC, not just this thread. It is rascist and I have to question some people's motives and the justification for such hatred. They seem to back up the Arabs states but condemn the USA at every possible opportunity and this thread proves that again.

Sorry, Gareth, the only racism I have detected in this thread is part of one sentence:-

"... scum called Al Queda / Islam/ Koran whatever ..."

The rest of us seem able to distinguish between the perpetrators of terrorism, the followers of a particular religion, and a book.

The world is a far more dangerous place when these distinctions are dismissed with a throwaway word like "whatever". That is the mistake that George Bush makes.

 

[berkshire seagull]

And exactly where did I, or anyone else, do that??

Don't try to back up your ill-informed personal insults unless you are willing to do it face to face one day.

is there something about whitley

How come you finally put whitley on your location,so you are very very near to king berkshire

 

[Lady Bracknell]

This is undoubtedly one of the best discussions I've read on the "war on terrorism" given that the majority of the posts moved away from tabloid "newspeak" and into the more difficult issues. Because, like it or not there ARE reasons why these events happen. Failing to accept that every action has some reaction is not only unintelligent, it's positively dangerous.

Religion is, without doubt, at the root of a great deal of what we now call "terrorism". Something that has been with us for hundreds of years rather than being invented on 11th September 2001. But terrorism is about a great deal more than religion. Blaming religion, per se, for all terrorist activity is a very easy escape route for the closed minded to take as is their doctrinal misinterpretation of different faiths.

And I'm truly terrorised by George Bush's particular brand of bigoted evangelism. Given the influence the USA has as a world power I'm as worried about the impact his policies will have on our lives as I am of the chance of a terrorist attack in London tomorrow. Because, as the old song goes "you can't have one without the other".

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's probably true of some of them, but they certainly are all in favour of human rights within their own contries - which is more than can be said for many Muslims (or we wouldn't have Sharia law in places like Nigeria).

I would be interested in what you suggest we do as a first step to align ourselves with this "vast majority of muslims [that] believe in human rights". Because that is what I'd like to do too.

I just think that the first step is to have a constitution that puts government above religion. Like the Americans have been trying to do in Iraq.

Your first sentence shows how misrepresented the world is at present. Why are human rights so poor in some countries? The simple answer is that it is because their governments are keeping a firm hold on absolute power. How are they doing this? Through economic and military support from global powers - the US, Europe, Canada, Japan, Russia, China, Australia. Why do they help keep these tyrants in power? So they get cheap access to their natural resources or have their battles against drugs (or today, terrorists) fought for them. They know the only way that can be achieved is through disregarding human rights in those countries. There's no doubt that human rights have fallen in Indonesia as a result of the CIA-backed coup that brought Suharto to power, or the military support he was given to crush the independence movement in East Timor. There's also no doubt that human rights fell in Chile when Allende was replaced by Pinochet. We all know the Saudi Arabian regime, Saddam Hussain, the leaders in Turkey, were/are being supported by the US. Colombia received over $350 billion in military support from the 2002 US budget, whilst only $75 billion went out in aid to the rest of the world.

The first step to aligning ourselves with people who believe in human rights is to carry out activities that show that WE believe in human rights - not just in our own countries (although Australia has one of the worst human rights records of all, and has been heavily criticised by the UN) but in THEIR countries. Supporting a sanctions regime that effectively allows each person in Iraq $100 a year is not supporting human rights. Cluster bombing a prison in Afghanistan killing all 450 Taliban prisoners inside is not supporting human rights but bringing ourselves down to the barbarism of our 'allies' the northern alliance.

A constitution should put itself above religion? Religion, in its purest forms, teaches tolerance, love, peace, justice. It is corrupt scholars of that religion, be they mullahs, priests or rabbis, who twist the words, incite the fundamentalists, for their own ends. Anyway, all our government institutions cite the word God in their covenances. The US government is trying to outlaw gay marriage as part of their constitution - clearly religiously motivated. Not to mention Clinton passing laws banning aid to any organisation anywhere in the world that promotes abortions, even as one suggested alternative, EVEN in the case of rape.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I don't agree with relativism at all.

I'd say the western way is better because of things like modern medicine, and that our science actually works (i.e. planes fly, cars drive, innoculation prevents illness). I also think western civilization has done much moral good for the world (i.e. people like Tom Paine and the rights of man, outlawing slavery, working conditions, freedom of speech, rights for women etc).

Anyone who argues that this is just relative is wrong IMO. These are good things, that we should be proud of.

Hello, me again

I agree that all those things you list are great. But why can't we apply them to the developing world? working conditions are good here, in other places it means sweat shops owned by western companies. Inoculation prevents illnesses here, over there they can't get them because they are overpriced by the same pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I got into all this because of all of the injustices that have been done to the country I love, work in and live in, Indonesia. It also means that I can't have a proper debate with you guys because of the time difference.

Gareth, the one big exception 'll take with you is that you are falling into one of Bush's most offensive traps, the 'you're with us or you're against us' fallacy. Well, I think Al Qaeda are scum. I also think Bush and the US government are scum. I think many (but not all) global multinationals are scum, the IMF and World Bank are scum, the CIA are scum, Saddam Hussain was scum, and so on.

Don't ignore history, and that history 'lesson' included more examples from the 1990's than any other period.

If the US government didn't want to create martyrs out of farmers, then it shouldn't have f***ed on them the world over for the past 50 years

 

[London Irish]

Kalimantan, congratulations on your initial posting in this thread, the best thing I've ever read on NSC.

There has been an interesting discussion about religion and how harmful that can be if it gets mixed up with state power. But really this is something of a side issue.

The key to understanding why the world is like it is has nothing to do with ephemeral concepts like religious beliefs.

It's all about the raw political, economic and military power of the richest nations, or if you want a shorthand word for that, IMPERIALISM.

It's pointless moaning about the theocracies and lack of human rights in the underdeveloped countries without looking at whether the West is responsible for these conditions!

Poor Gareth thrashes around in his usual simpleminded way looking for easy answers "let's kill all the bad guys" .

Yet Al-Quada has sprung from a country that the West has controlled for decades through the corrupt and venal Al Saud dynasty. When is Bush going to come out in favour of freedom and democracy in Saudi Arabia? When are we going to send armies to liberate Saudi Arabians from the vicious dictatorship that rules them? The answer is never as long as the Al Saud "royalty" keep pumping the oil our way.

Kalimantan has patiently explained how the Taliban were virtually a creation of the CIA in their attempts to destablise the secular government of Afghanistan. That they then grew into a Frankenstein's Monster that took away the freedoms of their own people is the responsibility of those in the West who funded and supported them, ie. Bush Snr, the then-head of the CIA.

Saddam Hussein was supported in the same way by the West right up to the invasion of Kuwait because Saddam was regarded as a useful friend against the Islamic fundamentalism of Iran. The gassing of the Kurds by Saddam was all achieved with equipment received from his Western backers.

And what created the conditions for the huge growth of Islamic fundamentalism in Iran? Could it be the Western puppet regime of the Shah, which tortured and murdered its own people merrily for decades? But that was fine and dandy, after all, he kept the oil pumping our way.

The reason why people blame America first is that it just saves a lot of time. But if you want to go through the longer method, be my guest. Study post-WW2 Western policy towards all these flashpoints in the Middle East and you will see a recurring theme - Western support for a vast array and corrupt and despotic regimes, that directly produce various strains of unhealthy Arab nationalism like Saddam or Gaddafi, or various upsurges of Islamic fundamentalism like the Iranian clerics, the Taliban or Al-Quada.

The only truly moral policy is to call for elections in EVERY SINGLE Arab despotic country, not just in the ones like Iraq who refuse to follow US orders. Putting a crook and fraudster like Chlabi in charge of Iraq is the equivalent of putting Jeffrey Archer in charge of a new democracy.

But the governments these elections will produce may not be quite to western tastes - they would certainly renationalise all their major national resources and kick out the Westerm multinational corporations. Such Arab democratic governments would also give aid to the struggle of the Palestinian people to repell the various occupations of the Israeli state, such occupations of course declared illegal by numerous UN resolutions but strangely never acted upon by the Western-dominated UN Security Council.

All this crap about "terrorism" is a side issue puffed up by the Western elites and media to stop you looking at the real answer - Arab democracy and self-determination.

Al Quada is a tiny, nutty, fringe organisation that is given vast publicity by the West when in reality it is only a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

Sort out the real problem of poverty, injustice, lack of democracy and western economic dominance in the Middle East, and the support networks that sustain, nuture and reproduce Al Quada members will dry up. If your only policy is the Bush-Blair one of trying to kill a lot of Arabs while nicking all their oil, don't be suprised if a few of them come looking to kill us too.

 

[alan partridge]

My bugger off was directed at AP and his unnecessary condecending patrionising reponse to my thread about the " lone voice " but I have to conclude you are much more intelligent and use much longer words than me. Therefore obviously you are right. Sorry.

sorry about my post. i was a bit cranky at the time. the madrid bombs are a bit too close to home.

however i was only being patronising to highlight how patronising you have also been in this thread. people have been talking about the topic in an intelligent reasoned manner which you ignore and sling the same old familiar mud, al qaeda sympathisers/p.c./be with the us or...blah blah.

give the thread another read.

btw which long words was i using? does 'interested' count? see, its the same as accusing people of being terrorist sympathisers. playground tactics: AP doesn't know what he's talking about he just uses long words. he probably reads the guradian and eats muesli all day long etc etc

 

[London Irish]

I'm deliberately going to use long words now to terrify Gareth.

Your support for the US, Gareth, is lamentably supercalifragilistic-expialidocious

 

[bhaexpress]

I'm deliberately going to use long words now to terrify Gareth.

Your support for the US, Gareth, is lamentably supercalifragilistic-expialidocious

Well Gareth has a point though. It is easy to blame the USA for all the world's woes. Bear in mind the ignorance and distortion that Al Queda and their ilk use to spread their version of 'fact' they are equally to blame.

It's clear that here are more than a few moslems who would happily see Chrstianity obliterated.

Frankly I would edicate ALL religions as what all them teach is nothing more than jingositic mumbo jumbo.

 

[Yorkie]

Whilst not condoning what the West have done in the Middle East there is absolutely no guarantee whatsover that if western countries left all the oil to the Arabs and left them to their own devices that they would start electing democratic governments.

Saudi Arabia is an extremely rich country and don't provide any medical facilities for their own poor people. Their attitude is that if a person is born poor then Allah willed it that way.
My ex husband worked in Saudi for 2 years and a friend as a nurse in Rhiyadh.
The hypocasy is unbelievable. Rich Arabs have told to come and collect their crate of 'furniture' from the airport because it is leaking.
You go through traffic lights at green and an Arab driver comes through the lights at red. He hits you. You are at fault because you are there. Allah willed it.
You have to pay for his medical treatment and to pay for his family whilst he cannot work.

True examples of that country's mentality.

 

[bhaexpress]

My ex wife was a croupier in a large West End casino. I can only echo Yorkie's comments about Arab hypocracy. The rich ones come here and break every law in the Koran.

They drink, smoke, gamble and whore. As Yorkie says, it does say a lot about their mentality.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

I shall retire gracefully and lick my wounds after being flame grilled like a Burger King special ( USA to blame for those as well ! ).

I think I'll watch Rambo 2 - That guy had the right idea Irish !.