So turn it round then - would you rather Hamas fighters were killing each other than Israelis ?
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War in Middle East - part XXVVVII
- Thread starter portlock seagull
- Start date
So turn it round then - would you rather Hamas fighters were killing each other than Israelis ?
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
the problem I see it almost mirrors the "human shield" that Saddam Hussien used so effectively and it seems to be a ploy used by all those people who do not believe in the sanctity of human life.
If you fire off rockets from the grounds of a school or hospital, or blocks of flats, then when retaliation follows, there will be casualties....in the same way as Hammas and Hisbollah did not "target" anywhere in Israel, they just fire rockets in the vain hope that it will kill people.
I am not an Israeli apologist as it is far too complicated for anyone to really know how it will end. I just hope that one of these rockets dont hit one of the nuclear reactors in israel...if so we all kiss our arses goodbye
If you fire off rockets from the grounds of a school or hospital, or blocks of flats, then when retaliation follows, there will be casualties....in the same way as Hammas and Hisbollah did not "target" anywhere in Israel, they just fire rockets in the vain hope that it will kill people.
I am not an Israeli apologist as it is far too complicated for anyone to really know how it will end. I just hope that one of these rockets dont hit one of the nuclear reactors in israel...if so we all kiss our arses goodbye
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 71,878
I'd say The Holocaust gave the State Of Israel a unique mind-set with which to protect themselves as they see fit. Lest we forget, that was only some sixty years ago, it's not like it happened in the Middle Ages. It's still raw - and will be for a long time yet. While deploring the heavy-handedness of their current actions, I can fully understand the reasons.
Which makes it even more surprising they persecute others and have effectively turned Gaza into todays Nazi ghetto.
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
I would rather see no one killing anyone, however celebrating in the fact that three people were killed by their own side is hardly something to celebrate is it?
Or perhaps according to you it is.
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 71,878
Absolutely. With the exception of the word 'Nazi' from your post. In no way do the Israelis wish to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the earth. Unlike Israel's opponents want to do with Israel. The State Of Israel may be hard-as-nail fuckers, but in the end they just want Hamas to stop lobbing snidey missiles over the border. They'd much rather live in peace with their neighbours. Sadly, tho, their apparently indiscriminate terrorising of the Palestinians will prolong that process. I say 'indiscriminate' but it's not that. There's warning shells, warning phone calls FFS. And many of them. Like the IRA over here at the height of the bombing campaign, there's no agenda of wholesale slaughter. It's as strategic as these things can ever be. With a lot of people horribly caught in the middle. Same as it ever was.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
Hope your not referencing me with that. If you want examples of Israeli concessions i suggest you pay greater attention to what goes on in negotiations.
I'm not going to lead you by the hand on blatantly obvious.
User removed 4
New member
tired tired argument that people fall back on when they know full well israel is in the wrong ,why is it anti semitic to question israels right to exist ? explain please.
The Spanish
Well-known member
exactly there are plenty of jewish anti zionists, or self hating jews as they are often politely referred to by the zionists.
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
I don't know a huge amount about this conflict, although I've been bought up to speed reading the news and some of the UN links on here etc, considerably in the past few days. It seems to me though that what you say about Israel doesn't ring true. If the state of Israel truly wanted to live in peace, why have they, and why do they, persist in land-grabs at every opportunity? It seems, from my limited understanding, that they want to live in peace as long as it is on their terms, as long as they have what they want, and as long as they can box the Palestinians into as small a land mass as possible.
I appreciate that both sides are at fault, and I'm not trying to paint the Israeli's as the sole baddies in the piece, but it just seems to me that this image you paint of peace-loving Israelis is not matched by their actions.
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
because they had mass emigration from the old soviet union when it all fell apart and didnt have any room to put them. Israel has therefore being expanding to get land for their population....which in a nutshell is the problem
Barrel of Fun
Abort, retry, fail
Another Israeli soldier killed, by a suicide bomber and more footage and pictures of mortally wounded civilians.
I guess we can forget about Zimbabwe for the time being
I guess we can forget about Zimbabwe for the time being
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
And now the Israeli's have just carried out an air strike on a school in the Gaza Strip. At least 40 dead so far apparently.
The Spanish
Well-known member
And now the Israeli's have just carried out an air strike on a school in the Gaza Strip. At least 40 dead so far apparently.
30 kids were killed in WW2 at my boys school. very famous incident in SE London and can see it out the window. This 'Who Is The Worst' is bollocks and mindless. Perhaps I should go to Dusseldorf and blow myself up.
No one wants innocent people killed, citing examples of atrocities from the sanctuary of Sussex just makes you look silly.
I cannot believe NSC has not sorted this all out yet with all the clever people on here. Its a tragedy for normal people, but that's human nature. All you can do rather than cite historical references and show off about your sunday school knowledge, is oppose murderous violence. Don't pick sides. You don't really have one.
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Who says I'm picking sides ? Its just "breaking news", thats all.
Tom Bombadil
Well-known member
It's not blatantly obvious that's the point. There are two sides to the argument - not just the Israeli side which you swallow unquestioningly. I am well aware what went on in the negotiations because i have read around the subject.
portlock seagull
Well-known member
- Jul 28, 2003
- 17,609
- Thread starter
- #217
Yes, 632 is in the 1st millennium I referred to? You need to re-read....
Steve Foster
Well-known member
............And it is -6.3 in Shoreham. Coldest night of the year?
This week, Israeli warplanes pounded Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip. The goal of the operation is to strike a major blow to Hamas's terror infrastructure and the ability of Hamas and its allied organizations to launch missiles and mortar shells at Israeli citizens and execute terror attacks of various kinds, such as kidnapping Israeli civilians.
As casualties mount, media coverage of the fighting will form public opinion, ultimately determining Israel's ability to complete the necessary operation. Following is a quick guide to some of the big issues.
Why is Israel bombing Gaza when innocent civilians are being killed?
Israel never targets civilians. The death of innocent civilians is regrettable under any circumstances and every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. That imperative must be balanced with the need to protect Israeli civilians, who suffer from ongoing attacks from Gaza. But while the Palestinians fire Kassam rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory, Israel launches pinpoint strikes at Hamas infrastructure. Prior to launching any large-scale attacks, Israel spent many months identifying Hamas' strongholds and training facilities. The Israeli Air Force also managed to hit "secret" targets such as underground missile launchers and arms catches -- a testament to Israel's great effort to ensure that air strikes weaken Hamas without harming innocent Palestinians.
Israel does not want a humanitarian crisis, and Hamas is the cause of the suffering and distress of the population there.
Unfortunately, Hamas has never shown the same level of concern for either Israeli or Palestinian civilians. On one hand, Hamas has fired thousands of missiles into Israeli territory, killing and wounding hundreds.
On the other hand, rather than seeking the well-being of the Palestinians under its control in Gaza, Hamas has exploited its civilian population -- and Israel's reluctance to cause civilian casualties -- by placing non-combatants in and around areas likely to be targeted by Israel. Hamas brings women and children up to the roofs of buildings housing terrorist activity in an attempt to prevent air strikes; it sends civilians to the line of fire; it works out of schools and mosques; it fires rockets out of crowded population centers; and it sends Palestinian mothers to murder Israeli children in suicide attacks.
In addition, many of Hamas' arms smuggling tunnels are hidden beneath the homes of Palestinian civilians.
This cynical use of human shields is illegal under international law and the cause of many needless Palestinian deaths. Therefore, the responsibility for Palestinian civilian casualties lies with Hamas, not Israel.
The number of Palestinians casualties is much higher. Isn't that proof of Israeli wrongdoing?
The reason that Israel suffers less casualties is because it has a superior army, and has spent millions of dollars on civil defense infrastructure (neighborhood bomb shelters, reinforced concrete playgrounds for children, etc.).
Also, Israeli hospitals are well-equipped to handle the wounded. Not just Jews, but Gazans, too! In Ashkelon's Barzilai Hospital, "dozens of Gaza Arabs are being treated... at the same time terrorists are bombarding the city." ("Israeli Hospital Cares for Sick and Injured Gaza Arabs," by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu, Israel National News, December 29, 2008)
By contrast, in the Gaza hospitals, "armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls" where they shot and killed other Palestinians. ("No Early End Seen to 'All-Out War' on Hamas in Gaza," by Ethan Bronner and Taghreed El-Khodary, New York Times, December 29, 2008)
Shockingly, Hamas is not even allowing wounded Palestinians access to medical treatment. "We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to cross. They are not being allowed to cross," Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit told reporters. Asked who was to blame, he said: "Ask the party in control on the ground in Gaza." ("Egypt: Hamas denying Gaza wounded treatment in Egypt," by Alaa Shahine, Reuters, December 28, 2008)
It is absurd to assign the "moral high-ground" to he who suffers the most causalities. By this yardstick, during World War Two the Axis forces would be considered the "victims" against the Allied "aggressors."
Isn't Israel's operation a violation of the Hamas truce?
Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the calm, is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.
The truce brokered by Egypt was exploited by Hamas not only to employ terror against Israel's citizens, but also to gain strength and massively arm itself with the intention of increasing their capacity for terror and expanding the range of the threat against Israeli citizens. Hamas men were being smuggled out and were being trained in Iran and Syria.
Hamas shoots harmless, homemade rockets, and Israel responds with fighter jets and precision-guided missiles. Isn't that excessive force?
The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression. In reality, the Palestinians' so-called "primitive" Kassam rocket has killed and wounded hundreds of Israeli civilians. The number of casualties would be even higher without Israeli security measures such as early-warning alarms in areas under rocket threat that allow Israelis to escape into bomb shelters. Hamas has also fired medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets, placing more than 250,000 Israeli civilians under direct threat of rocket fire.
Given the Palestinian fire power and their willingness to use it, it is clear that the charge of "excessive force" is simply the latest incarnation of the Palestinian strategy of "victimhood." Terror groups fire indiscriminately at innocent Israelis and then complain of excessive or disproportionate force when Israel fires back. But according to internationally accepted laws of war, Israel is permitted to respond with the force necessary to end the conflict.
It is also important to examine the intent behind the use of weapons. Palestinian terrorists do everything in their power to hurt or kill as many Israeli civilians as possible; Israel is using its advanced weaponry to protect Palestinian civilians from harm.
Isn't Hamas entitled to defend its territory against Israeli occupation?
Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.
Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.
No country in the world would allow this type of onslaught against its citizens. As President-elect Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
Isn't Hamas the democratically-elected government in Gaza? Why is Israel trying to overthrow it?
Hamas promotes itself as the legitimate power in Gaza. In reality, Hamas is at its core a terrorist organization that refuses to renounce violence or recognize Israel's right to exist. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.
Hamas came to power in Gaza through a violent coup against the Palestinian Authority government. The international community continues to recognize the PA, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate Palestinian government in the Palestinian territories. At the same time Israel is fighting terror, the government is deliberately and openly maintaining a political process with the Palestinian government Abbas. Hamas opposes these negotiations and any settlement with Israel, and constitutes an unstable element in the region.
Hamas steadfastly refuses to recognize Israel and continues to launch attacks on its neighbor. Since Hamas refuses to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government has no choice but to seek Hamas' replacement.
This week, Israeli warplanes pounded Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip. The goal of the operation is to strike a major blow to Hamas's terror infrastructure and the ability of Hamas and its allied organizations to launch missiles and mortar shells at Israeli citizens and execute terror attacks of various kinds, such as kidnapping Israeli civilians.
As casualties mount, media coverage of the fighting will form public opinion, ultimately determining Israel's ability to complete the necessary operation. Following is a quick guide to some of the big issues.
Why is Israel bombing Gaza when innocent civilians are being killed?
Israel never targets civilians. The death of innocent civilians is regrettable under any circumstances and every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties. That imperative must be balanced with the need to protect Israeli civilians, who suffer from ongoing attacks from Gaza. But while the Palestinians fire Kassam rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory, Israel launches pinpoint strikes at Hamas infrastructure. Prior to launching any large-scale attacks, Israel spent many months identifying Hamas' strongholds and training facilities. The Israeli Air Force also managed to hit "secret" targets such as underground missile launchers and arms catches -- a testament to Israel's great effort to ensure that air strikes weaken Hamas without harming innocent Palestinians.
Israel does not want a humanitarian crisis, and Hamas is the cause of the suffering and distress of the population there.
Unfortunately, Hamas has never shown the same level of concern for either Israeli or Palestinian civilians. On one hand, Hamas has fired thousands of missiles into Israeli territory, killing and wounding hundreds.
On the other hand, rather than seeking the well-being of the Palestinians under its control in Gaza, Hamas has exploited its civilian population -- and Israel's reluctance to cause civilian casualties -- by placing non-combatants in and around areas likely to be targeted by Israel. Hamas brings women and children up to the roofs of buildings housing terrorist activity in an attempt to prevent air strikes; it sends civilians to the line of fire; it works out of schools and mosques; it fires rockets out of crowded population centers; and it sends Palestinian mothers to murder Israeli children in suicide attacks.
In addition, many of Hamas' arms smuggling tunnels are hidden beneath the homes of Palestinian civilians.
This cynical use of human shields is illegal under international law and the cause of many needless Palestinian deaths. Therefore, the responsibility for Palestinian civilian casualties lies with Hamas, not Israel.
The number of Palestinians casualties is much higher. Isn't that proof of Israeli wrongdoing?
The reason that Israel suffers less casualties is because it has a superior army, and has spent millions of dollars on civil defense infrastructure (neighborhood bomb shelters, reinforced concrete playgrounds for children, etc.).
Also, Israeli hospitals are well-equipped to handle the wounded. Not just Jews, but Gazans, too! In Ashkelon's Barzilai Hospital, "dozens of Gaza Arabs are being treated... at the same time terrorists are bombarding the city." ("Israeli Hospital Cares for Sick and Injured Gaza Arabs," by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu, Israel National News, December 29, 2008)
By contrast, in the Gaza hospitals, "armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls" where they shot and killed other Palestinians. ("No Early End Seen to 'All-Out War' on Hamas in Gaza," by Ethan Bronner and Taghreed El-Khodary, New York Times, December 29, 2008)
Shockingly, Hamas is not even allowing wounded Palestinians access to medical treatment. "We are waiting for the wounded Palestinians to cross. They are not being allowed to cross," Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit told reporters. Asked who was to blame, he said: "Ask the party in control on the ground in Gaza." ("Egypt: Hamas denying Gaza wounded treatment in Egypt," by Alaa Shahine, Reuters, December 28, 2008)
It is absurd to assign the "moral high-ground" to he who suffers the most causalities. By this yardstick, during World War Two the Axis forces would be considered the "victims" against the Allied "aggressors."
Isn't Israel's operation a violation of the Hamas truce?
Hamas is responsible for the situation, since it violated the calm, is firing against and attacking Israeli citizens, and is investing all its resources in arming itself and gathering power.
The truce brokered by Egypt was exploited by Hamas not only to employ terror against Israel's citizens, but also to gain strength and massively arm itself with the intention of increasing their capacity for terror and expanding the range of the threat against Israeli citizens. Hamas men were being smuggled out and were being trained in Iran and Syria.
Hamas shoots harmless, homemade rockets, and Israel responds with fighter jets and precision-guided missiles. Isn't that excessive force?
The Palestinians have long cultivated an image of victimhood to win world sympathy and demand Israeli restraint in the face of Palestinian aggression. In reality, the Palestinians' so-called "primitive" Kassam rocket has killed and wounded hundreds of Israeli civilians. The number of casualties would be even higher without Israeli security measures such as early-warning alarms in areas under rocket threat that allow Israelis to escape into bomb shelters. Hamas has also fired medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets, placing more than 250,000 Israeli civilians under direct threat of rocket fire.
Given the Palestinian fire power and their willingness to use it, it is clear that the charge of "excessive force" is simply the latest incarnation of the Palestinian strategy of "victimhood." Terror groups fire indiscriminately at innocent Israelis and then complain of excessive or disproportionate force when Israel fires back. But according to internationally accepted laws of war, Israel is permitted to respond with the force necessary to end the conflict.
It is also important to examine the intent behind the use of weapons. Palestinian terrorists do everything in their power to hurt or kill as many Israeli civilians as possible; Israel is using its advanced weaponry to protect Palestinian civilians from harm.
Isn't Hamas entitled to defend its territory against Israeli occupation?
Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, uprooting thousands of its own citizens in order to uphold internationally-recognized borders in Gaza. The Palestinians have no further territorial claims against Israel in Gaza. But instead of working to improve the quality of life for its citizens, Hamas has focused on improving the range and accuracy of its Kassam missiles and mortars and increasing its store of weapons. The Palestinian rockets, therefore, can only be seen as aggression against Israel with no moral basis.
Palestinians have fired more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since the Israeli withdrawal -- all without provocation. The rocket fire even continued during the six-months of "calm" in the Gaza area that ended last Friday. Since then, Hamas stepped up rocket fire substantially, launching 170 rockets at Israel over eight days, an average of more than 20 rockets a day.
No country in the world would allow this type of onslaught against its citizens. As President-elect Barack Obama said during his visit to the rocket-battered town of Sderot five months ago, "If someone was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."
Isn't Hamas the democratically-elected government in Gaza? Why is Israel trying to overthrow it?
Hamas promotes itself as the legitimate power in Gaza. In reality, Hamas is at its core a terrorist organization that refuses to renounce violence or recognize Israel's right to exist. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States and the European Union.
Hamas came to power in Gaza through a violent coup against the Palestinian Authority government. The international community continues to recognize the PA, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate Palestinian government in the Palestinian territories. At the same time Israel is fighting terror, the government is deliberately and openly maintaining a political process with the Palestinian government Abbas. Hamas opposes these negotiations and any settlement with Israel, and constitutes an unstable element in the region.
Hamas steadfastly refuses to recognize Israel and continues to launch attacks on its neighbor. Since Hamas refuses to live in peace with Israel, the Israeli government has no choice but to seek Hamas' replacement.
Barrel of Fun
Abort, retry, fail
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Strike at Gaza school 'kills 30'
Well, they didn't do a very good job of avoiding a SCHOOL. Are they not using sophisticated weapons?
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
why is it racist to call for all research into sycal cell animia to be banned?
A Zionist is someone who accepts or beleives there should be a state of Israel.
If you dont beleive in it you need to state how it would be dismantled peacefully without resorting to ethnic cleansing and/or genocide.
This is were ANTI-Semetics like bushy come unstuck, they either refuse to answer the question or their response seems decended from cloud cuckoo land.
Untill you can produce a rational responce that isn't wacked out utopianism I will continue to beleive you are an anti-semetic. Or just plane insane.