UK jobs market recovery 'to stall'

[ROSM]

Yes, I understand the benefits of competition. I really am right with you there. But it is my belief that this cannot really work with public utilities.

You don't lay five sets of gas pipes under the roads. So who owns them? One of the utility firms presumably. Do you actually know? But the point is, this is a sort of contrived competitions isn't it. You simply cannot have multiple firms growing organically to provide proper competition.

And ultimately, these public utilities are now answerable to private share holders, not 80 year old Doris who has had to wait two weeks in December for some heating because her local utility company paid out dividends instead of upgrading the gas piping in her area which has now subsequently burst.

Competition - yes please, as long as public welfare cannot be seen to be compromised

what i said but in much more eloquent terms. Thank you.

 

[simmo]

Yes, I understand the benefits of competition. I really am right with you there. But it is my belief that this cannot really work with public utilities.

You don't lay five sets of gas pipes under the roads. So who owns them? One of the utility firms presumably. Do you actually know? But the point is, this is a sort of contrived competitions isn't it. You simply cannot have multiple firms growing organically to provide proper competition.

And ultimately, these public utilities are now answerable to private share holders, not 80 year old Doris who has had to wait two weeks in December for some heating because her local utility company paid out dividends instead of upgrading the gas piping in her area which has now subsequently burst.

Competition - yes please, as long as public welfare cannot be seen to be compromised

But it is not contrived competition is it, there are two parts to competition price and service, the prices may be relatively similar and I agree with that, but what if one provider offers you a cracking service i.e they do fix Grans gas leak within 2 hours and one takes 4 weeks. Word will spread and other customers will flock to them.

How many times does an individual go on the word on someone else about oh, go with them they are great or don't go with them they are sh1t.

You know as an aside (got nothing to do with privitisation but as an eg.) I have recently changed my car insurance and I specifically wouldn't go with Aviva (not because of their price which was much of a muchness) but because I have been told by friends that their customer support is diabolical.

 

[ROSM]

But it is not contrived competition is it, there are two parts to competition price and service, the prices may be relatively similar and I agree with that, but what if one provider offers you a cracking service i.e they do fix Grans gas leak within 2 hours and one takes 4 weeks. Word will spread and other customers will flock to them.

How many times does an individual go on the word on someone else about oh, go with them they are great or don't go with them they are sh1t.

You know as an aside (got nothing to do with privitisation but as an eg.) I have recently changed my car insurance and I specifically wouldn't go with Aviva (not because of their price which was much of a muchness) but because I have been told by friends that their customer support is diabolical.

But what's that got to do with utilities? the service to your house is controlled by the same company (gas, water ,electric). EDF supplies electricity houses in the old seeboard, london and east area, and so on irrespective of who they buy electricity from. The only bit of privatisation the customer sees is the price for that they pay for it. But then these prices are offset by if you are a supplier so as I say, gas suppliers are usually cheaper on electricity and electric ones on gas. In the end the price differential is fluctuating and minimal. the only thing we have seen is that in real terms they have increased significantly.

The issue here is that you dont have a fundamental understanding of the industry you're referring to and as such you are arguing from a idealogical rather than a knowledge basis.

 

[simmo]

But what's that got to do with utilities? the service to your house is controlled by the same company (gas, water ,electric). EDF supplies electricity houses in the old seeboard, london and east area, and so on irrespective of who they buy electricity from. The only bit of privatisation the customer sees is the price for that they pay for it. But then these prices are offset by if you are a supplier so as I say, gas suppliers are usually cheaper on electricity and electric ones on gas. In the end the price differential is fluctuating and minimal. the only thing we have seen is that in real terms they have increased significantly.

The issue here is that you dont have a fundamental understanding of the industry you're referring to and as such you are arguing from a idealogical rather than a knowledge basis.

Hang on a minute, I think I can change my gas/electricity supplier if I want to if I am not happy with the price or service that they offer me.

 

[ROSM]

Hang on a minute, I think I can change my gas/electricity supplier if I want to if I am not happy with the price or service that they offer me.

You cannot change who supplies the gas or electricity to your property (the pipes or indeed the product) you can only change to whom you pay.

EDF energy networks will still be the one supplying the service to your property whether or not you are billed by them. if you have gas with EDF and you switch to scottish and southern they wont suddenly change the make of gas (or the mechanics) of getting it to you.

Or did you think the colour coded it so you knew if you were getting british gas's gas or edf energy's gas?

 

[beorhthelm]

And ultimately, these public utilities are now answerable to private share holders, not 80 year old Doris who has had to wait two weeks in December for some heating because her local utility company paid out dividends instead of upgrading the gas piping in her area which has now subsequently burst.

but the utiliities were never answerable to 80 yo Doris, they were answerable to a legion of civil servants and unions. we still see this with the Tubes in partucular, where the RMT seem to think the services is run for the benefit of their members employment rather than the commuter. was this not widespread in the old nationalised industries?

and in a sence Doris is probably a net beneficiary of privatisation if she (or hubby) has a pension. who are the majority shareholders in the utilities? pension funds.

yes, competition is a fig leaf in some areas of utilities and really there cant be any proper competition. but what there is now is massive investment into the infrastructure to make it cheaper and offer better facilities. for all the crying about front line service with BT, they invest billions into rolling out new kit. that was the tax payers responsibility once, now its the shareholders/bond owners. someone pointed out the effective write off of the debt in privatisation, debt the tax payer use to have to fund. the old "family silver" cost a lot to maintain.

 

[simmo]

You cannot change who supplies the gas or electricity to your property (the pipes or indeed the product) you can only change to whom you pay.

EDF energy networks will still be the one supplying the service to your property whether or not you are billed by them. if you have gas with EDF and you switch to scottish and southern they wont suddenly change the make of gas (or the mechanics) of getting it to you.

Or did you think the colour coded it so you knew if you were getting british gas's gas or edf energy's gas?

I understand what you are saying about whom owns the infrastructure etc. but really to me as an end user that is not really my concern.

I know that I can chose to use a different provider (a better word than supplier maybe) than EDF if I want to, if I am not happy with their price or service that they give me.

If what you are saying is realistic in the real world and it is basically irrelevant and that EDF have a monopoly over services in our area why do people change? Why are there so many price comparison/USwitch sites etc? Why is there advert after advert on the TV asking us to change Gas/Electricity suppliers. These would seem pointless if what you are implying is correct.

 

[ROSM]

I understand what you are saying about whom owns the infrastructure etc. but really to me as an end user that is not really my concern.

I know that I can chose to use a different provider (a better word than supplier maybe) than EDF if I want to, if I am not happy with their price or service that they give me.

If what you are saying is realistic in the real world and it is basically irrelevant and that EDF have a monopoly over services in our area why do people change? Why are there so many price comparison/USwitch sites etc? Why is there advert after advert on the TV asking us to change Gas/Electricity suppliers. These would seem pointless if what you are implying is correct.

But what service do they give you? they aren't responsible for power cuts, gas leaks, digging up the road etc. The 'service' is price, do they bill you correctly and did they provide you the service from the meter onwards on the times they said they would. That's only relevant when you move home.

So looking at price. For me at the moment the I can save a whopping £5 a month by changing at the moment. But my price is in the middle range and so I could also be paying £5 a month more. The total gap between top and bottom for an equivalent tariff is £10 per month (or less that 8%). And as it's changeable, next month it is likely to be the other way round.

Uswitch provide a good service covering the right tariff and options but it is only good at a point in time. But on the tariff side, shouldn't the wonderful privatised company be offering this to it's customers and advising them?

 

[simmo]

But what service do they give you? they aren't responsible for power cuts, gas leaks, digging up the road etc. The 'service' is price, do they bill you correctly and did they provide you the service from the meter onwards on the times they said they would. That's only relevant when you move home.

So looking at price. For me at the moment the I can save a whopping £5 a month by changing at the moment. But my price is in the middle range and so I could also be paying £5 a month more. The total gap between top and bottom for an equivalent tariff is £10 per month (or less that 8%). And as it's changeable, next month it is likely to be the other way round.

Uswitch provide a good service covering the right tariff and options but it is only good at a point in time. But on the tariff side, shouldn't the wonderful privatised company be offering this to it's customers and advising them?

It really is not relelvant to a lot of people what concerns there are over the gas and electricity supplies and it's infrastructure outside their front door. What they are concerned about though are the services that they get inside their house and any bills for this and eventhough you personally may not find any change of provider noticably different, some people do and they obviously find it beneficial to change electricity/gas provider.

If they did not what is the point of endless adverts/websites (like the one at the top of this page) asking us to do so. Some people obviously do change and change regularly as these adverts wouldn't exist and they obviously find the competition (whatever that may be) that is now in these industries beneficial to them. Eventhough obviously not for you (and that is your choice) it is obviously good for them and that is there choice too. But it is good for all of us to have a choice

 

[Biscuit]

...But it is good for all of us to have a choice

I think ROSM's point is that, what you've just said isn't always the case... and I agree with him.

 

[ROSM]

I think ROSM's point is that, what you've just said isn't always the case... and I agree with him.

Indeed - we seem to be stuck in a Alice in Wonderland world of perpetual circular arguments

 

[drew]

Fact is competition is only good if it improves service and reduces price. The utilities do neither.

 

[Biscuit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7978286/Churn-driving-growth-in-UK-jobs-as-few-new-roles-are-created-says-Hays.html

Interesting article in yesterday Torygraph - "The recovery in Britain's job market is coming from businesses replacing employees, rather than creating new jobs, according to the chief executive of recruitment company Hays. "

I hope this represents a starting point for confidence to grow and will eventually lead to more jobs, otherwise I fear it's just a sign of things to come..

 

[Biscuit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/7978286/Churn-driving-growth-in-UK-jobs-as-few-new-roles-are-created-says-Hays.html
I hope this represents a starting point for confidence to grow and will eventually lead to more jobs, otherwise I fear it's just a sign of things to come..

Sadly, I was right.

BBC News - UK unemployment total increases to 2.5m

UK unemployment total increases to 2.5m

Unemployment in the UK increased by 35,000 in the three months to October to 2.5 million, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) has said.

David Cameron pointed to the fall in unemployment benefit claimants and a rise in job vacancies, and claimed that the coalition was about to launch the "biggest back-to-work programme for 70 years".

I hope it works.

 

[bhaexpress]

I've got an idea, as this government wants to make money out of students (or so they say) why don't we all go to uni, pay the fees and thus not only slash the unemployed figures but also pay off the National Debt by paying these exorbitant fees and be ready to use the life training we get from the experience and thus get a we l paid job. Simple really.

 

[Biscuit]

I've just been made redundant.

A direct result of cuts to the third sector.

 

[tedebear]

I've just been made redundant.

A direct result of cuts to the third sector.

Christ thats bloody horrible Biscuit, sorry to hear it. Especially in light of the above conversation you were having last year above.

 

[Biscuit]

Thanks tedebear. I'm upset but keeping it in perspective. A lot of people are going through a lot worse. Really not looking forward to joining the job hunt again though.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

we still see this with the Tubes in partucular, where the RMT seem to think the services is run for the benefit of their members employment rather than the commuter.

What makes you think this? I'd say the perfect example of a rail system being run for others as opposed to commuters is the privatised overland service, not the tubes.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've got an idea, as this government wants to make money out of students (or so they say) why don't we all go to uni, pay the fees and thus not only slash the unemployed figures but also pay off the National Debt by paying these exorbitant fees and be ready to use the life training we get from the experience and thus get a we l paid job. Simple really.

You really have got a chip on your shoulder (awaits the predictable reflex cry of 'you took me out of context')