Two firms...................

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

But in the 'real world' wouldn't those workers that LB has shown as an example, be paid a higher wage, if they no longer have the other advantages ?

Average pay gap between public-private sectors 'widens' Public sector workers are paid MORE, on average

 

[Driver8]

But in the 'real world' wouldn't those workers that LB has shown as an example, be paid a higher wage, if they no longer have the other advantages ?

Not necessarily. Market forces will dictate what they would be paid and I think a recent report showed that the perceived fact that public sector workers were paid less for doing a similar job was a fallacy.

 

[Simster]

Everyone has to be realistic I'm afraid. The country simply cannot afford to keep the status quo. Most private sector employees have had to face up to changes to their pensions as the old style final salary pensions were becoming millstones around the necks of our biggest companies as they were unaffordable and creating huge liabilities on their balance sheets.

With public sector pensions there is no pension fund as such and all the pension payments are funded directly from taxation. The only way to maintain the pensions would be to raise taxes and I can't see that being popular and would be unfair on those in the private sector who have already faced cuts of their own.

As I said the public sector need to get used to the new world as it won't be getting better any time soon.

You know, there won't be many who disagree with you. But the changes being proposed on public sector pensions are DRASTIC. A better balance should have been struck, IMO - perhaps reducing the pension benefits a bit, and then adding a penny to income tax for everyone.

 

[BigGully]

The general public sympathise with what's happening, but we're all in the same boat at the moment, we have to pull together and work through this

But when teachers go on strike, forcing parents to take a day off they can't afford, or to search around for grandparents to look after their child, or even pay another day for nursery, that's when people turn on them I for 1 sympathise, but when these strikes start to effect me, that royally pisses me off

I always find this response frustrating.

I have always felt that teachers are their to educate our kids, so showing outrage at any perceived loss of learning time maybe is understandable.

Whether you agree or not with the strike action, deal with your own children as if they were poorly, yes its inconvenience but they are your children and your ultimate responsibility, so work something out.

Teachers are not childminders, they are professionals that at present feel they are being treated unfairly.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

When I worked in the public sector, the ethos was generally understood. We got lower pay than we might have had in the private sector. But we got better pensions and better job security.

Millions of public sector workers still get lower pay. The job security has gone. And now their pensions are being cut. Work it out.

We've had similar threads to this one several times over the past couple of years, ever since the last Government said that they were going to look at the issue of Public Sector Pensions.

My wife works in the Public Sector - and I work in the Private Sector, so we do actually see both sides of the argument.

The bottom line is that yes, in times go by, the Public Sector was (on the whole) lower paid, had better pensions, and better job security.

Now, that is simply not true. There is less job security than there was for those who work in the Public Sector, but they are (in many cases) now better paid than the Private Sector, and still have better Pensions (and will continue to have, even after the preposed changes have taken place.)

Let's remember where the money comes from to pay Public Sector pensions - the taxpayer (both private and public sector workers)

It is simply not right that a low paid private sector worker continues to subsidise a Public Sector Worker's Pension.

Workers in the Private Sector will have to pay more in and work longer too - the fact is that people are living longer, and the Country can no longer afford to pay the same level of Pension to public Sector Workers.

And no, she is not going on strike next week.

 

[albion534]

Serious question as you obviously do have sympathy for them: how do you propose they protest, given that it is all too easy for a goverment to simply wave away a bog standard weekend street protest with "yes we understand but we have no choice"?

Call Me Dave was full of angry words towards these evil trade unions yesterday, yet there was a deafening silence from #10 when the news of chief executive pay was made public. I think that says all I need to know about wealthy Call Me Dave and his public worker dictat.

How about these people protest during the 6 week holiday they have, or during non term time?

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

You know, there won't be many who disagree with you. But the changes being proposed on public sector pensions are DRASTIC. A better balance should have been struck, IMO - perhaps reducing the pension benefits a bit, and then adding a penny to income tax for everyone.

So a lowly paid private sector worker has his tax increased to continue to fund a Public Sector worker?

 

[Simster]

How about these people protest during the 6 week holiday they have, or during non term time?

So protest while they are on holiday? Yeah I'm sure that'll have the desired affect. Next time you want to ask for a pay rise, will you be taking a day off to do so too?

So a lowly paid private sector worker has his tax increased to continue to fund a Public Sector worker?

No. The whole of society pays an increase rate of tax to help cover the short fall in public sector spending. That's the thing about income tax, it doesn't specifically target the poor, it targets everyone with an income.

 

[BigGully]

Not necessarily. Market forces will dictate what they would be paid and I think a recent report showed that the perceived fact that public sector workers were paid less for doing a similar job was a fallacy.

But if LB stated generally public sector workers are paid less, therefore market forces would 'increase' their salary to the market level.

I accept that during years of plenty when the private sector enjoys expansion and growth of income, the public sector probably feel undervalued, but in times of economic hardship their perceived security seems to become a focus of envy.

Some feel however that now those benefits are being eroded, when growth does return the disparity between the private sector wages and public sector will be unsustainable.

I think if you value parts of the public sector then I think there is a reasonable argument for their concern.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So a lowly paid private sector worker has his tax increased to continue to fund a Public Sector worker?

Public Sector workers are tax payers too.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Part of the problem with public sector pensions is that the employee's contributions are not invested across their working life so the fund is never allowed to grow - it is just put straight into the Councils coffers for use on day to day expenditure, so is hardly managed in a sensible way. Whereas a public sector pension which is generally invested in a fund.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

No. The whole of society pays an increase rate of tax to help cover the short fall in public sector spending. That's the thing about income tax, it doesn't specifically target the poor, it targets everyone with an income.

Now you are refering to 'Public Sector Spending' - we are talking about Public Sector Pensions here.

A rise in income tax on a lowly paid private sector worker, to pay to maintain the level of the Pension currently enjoyed by say a teacher would be unfair, and IMO, wrong.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Public Sector workers are tax payers too.

Agreed - my wife is one.

In post 25 I said


Let's remember where the money comes from to pay Public Sector pensions - the taxpayer (both private and public sector workers)

 

[albion534]

So protest while they are on holiday? Yeah I'm sure that'll have the desired affect. Next time you want to ask for a pay rise, will you be taking a day off to do so too?


I wasn't saying they should do it, to be fair to the teachers, they obviously never cause trouble, but they also say they wish to
Protest with as little disruption to people as possible, so would this not be it

I would love a pay rise, but teachers have about 10 weeks off a year through non term time, how many people can boast that ?

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

But if LB stated generally public sector workers are paid less,

True in the past, not any more.

See post 21

Average pay gap between public-private sectors 'widens' Public sector workers are paid MORE, on average

 

[Peteinblack]

Here we go again:

A report two weeks ago revealed that boardroom and City pay increased by 49% last year (that's 49% of a 6 or 7 figure salary).

Yet here we are again with private sector and public sector workers slagging each other off and accusing each other of being 'greedy' 'undeserving' or 'selfish'.

This is exactly what Tories and their millionaire chums want; the proles at war with each other over who's getting a couple of quid more. It's called divide and rule, and a lot of people on here are falling for it.

 

[drew]

It's all about looking after no.1 now, haven't you heard? Common sense was sooo last century.

Are you saying the private sector are willingly being altruistic and don't look after No. 1?

Interesting blog from a teacher, the crucial part being at the end where it suggests that the fund is fully self funding and that agreements with regard to audits have not been met. As the blogger states, the sweeping changes do not take into account the status of individual public sector schemes. Another example is the NHS scheme were changes were introduced in 2008 and only this year staff were required to opt whether to stay in the old scheme or move to the new one. And now the Government is seeking to make further changes, extending working lives hich in itself is not always practical. How many would appreciate waiting for a couple fo 70 year olds to get out of an ambulance and treat you or waiting for fireman of a similar age catch their breath before trying to manhandle you down a ladder. There is far too much propaganda spewing from the mouths of the coalition and not enough attention to detail.

Finally, what I would like to know is exactly what percentage of the quantative easing that has occured over the last few years has ended up in the economy rather than on the balance sheets of the banks?

Lies, Damned Lies, and Teachers Pensions

 

[Peteinblack]

Public Sector workers are tax payers too.

Indeed! And as public sector worker, most of my tax-payer funded salary goes back into the private sector - shops, transport, pubs, restaurants, holidays, etc.

So if private sector workers want me to be dragged down to their level of poverty (I'd rather they were raised up, but then I'm not a communist who wants to level down to achieve equality of misery) fine, but then I'll spend less in my local private sector supermarket, pub, curry house, etc, and they will eventually go out of business. Way to go guys!

 

[Icy Gull]

As a point of interest just how difficult is it to be a Border Control Agent? I imagine people would be queuing up for this job given that I don't believe it can be too hard to check a passport on a machine? Or am I being too simplistic?

 

[Albion Rob]

I guess at the end of the day if you sign up to something then you're going to fight to keep it, aren't you? Not an exact comparison but if you agreed to pay £400 for a season ticket then the club said: "Actually, it only gets you into 20 games, not 23, you're going to miss Palace, Pompey and West Ham." then you'd probably be pissed off too rather than thinking: "Ok, that's probably fair enough, £20 per game is still a very good deal and it means the club can bring some extra money by flogging my seat for the three games that have been deducted."

Bottom line, if someone offers you something and then says they're taking it away for reasons way outside of your control then of course you're going to look to do something about it.

Let's also not forget that public sector pensions fall into many categories - my understanding is that the latest Nouvos scheme which I think came in in the last couple of years is much less generous than the schemes long term public sector employees approaching retirement are looking forward to.