highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,499
Oh yes, fine people on both sides.
Pro-facist or ant-facist? Really, it's so hard to judge who's in the right.
It is important to take a balanced view and not make any hasty judgements.
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Trump
- Thread starter ShandyH
- Start date
Oh yes, fine people on both sides.
Pro-facist or ant-facist? Really, it's so hard to judge who's in the right.
It is important to take a balanced view and not make any hasty judgements.
It's possibly one of the scariest aspects of US politics, that everything is so divisive. No room for anyone in the centre.
Absolutely. It's so, so tough.
It's a bit like with Hitler. On the one hand, he was an evil mass-murdering psycho, but on the other hand, apparently a Jew once tripped someone over (who didn't even deserve it!). So I just have no idea how to feel. Both sides really, isn't it?
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 15,659
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 15,659
As I've said countless times, he's a troll with no real care if what he says is true or not. There was a great bit on this week's John Oliver show about conspiracy theories, where Rush Limbaugh (of all people) said that Trumpo knows exactly what he's doing when he touts them by never actually saying he believes them (but his base probably think he does). He's just 'putting it out there' or "pouring gasoline on the fire" as Limbaugh put it.
A terribly tedious bloke to have as president, IMO.
The Democrat playbook seems to be keeping Biden relatively quiet and letting Trump do Biden's work for him.
On a side note the Senate elections could be very interesting. Could end up with a Senate majority for the Dems meaning they controlled both houses.
On a side note the Senate elections could be very interesting. Could end up with a Senate majority for the Dems meaning they controlled both houses.
highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,499
That division has been deliberately created, with a clear purpose.
And not by the 'left'
There is plenty of room in the centre and a LOT of people are there. The fact that they get called 'extreme left' for proposing that access to healthcare should not be dependent on financial status doesn't make it true.
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Hove / Παρος
Yep, agree 100%. Believing in healthcare for all and respect for basic human rights shouldn't be classed as being extreme left, left or even liberal. Basic human rights should be the absolute centre line. From the utter shite Trump and his swamp of supporters spew you'd think that the Democrats are fighting for a hardcore Marxist state!
Unsure if the point about healthcare relates to me? For the record I agree with you.
There is a fair amount of division on the left though with the more extreme elements turning on the more central. It's been a continual problem for the democrats in recent years. Just look how the contenders for the Democratic nomination had to jockey within their respective bases.
highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,499
My point is that in global (or just sane) terms, the position on healthcare taken by Sanders etc would be entirely mainstream but has been framed as 'extreme left' by those in the US desperate to divide and conquer, at any cost.
So what I can't see is who you are defining as the 'extreme' elements within the democrats?
For many years the Democrat party has taken a broadly centre right position. Now we see emergence of stronger voices from the centre, or centre left in response to the failure of right politics and the slide towards the neoliberal version of capitalism...plus some pushback aganist overt racism and facism. And this is being defined as 'extremist'? I don't buy it.
I see some youthful naivity, some over the top expressions of identity politics. Whether helpful or not, this does seem understandable and normal to me, especially in reponse to what is going on. But I see very little I would call 'extremist' on the left in the US right now.
Thanks for clarifying. I think there's been some confusion over what I was getting at.
The Democratic Party incorporates a range of viewpoints, some more to the left than others. In the recent period there's been more of a split developing and this has caused problems. Think Bernie v Hilary, which possibly cost Hilary the election (if not it certainly didn't help). This has been reheated more recently with Obama advising that Democrat nominees not to stray too far to the left. The issue isn't necessarily within the party itself, it's playing to the twitter and social media mob (a point those on the left such as Bill Maher despair of).
Trump wanted Bernie because he knew he had easy lines to use against him. Biden is far tougher because he doesn't have that background. If the US is going to vote for a Democrat I think Biden would stand a much greater chance any day of the week.
Bernie was seen even by his own party as a bit too far left. We can debate as to whether that's just or fair but that wasn't my point. For the purpose of winning an election the Democrats had to go for the candidate with the best chance.
The Democratic Party incorporates a range of viewpoints, some more to the left than others. In the recent period there's been more of a split developing and this has caused problems. Think Bernie v Hilary, which possibly cost Hilary the election (if not it certainly didn't help). This has been reheated more recently with Obama advising that Democrat nominees not to stray too far to the left. The issue isn't necessarily within the party itself, it's playing to the twitter and social media mob (a point those on the left such as Bill Maher despair of).
Trump wanted Bernie because he knew he had easy lines to use against him. Biden is far tougher because he doesn't have that background. If the US is going to vote for a Democrat I think Biden would stand a much greater chance any day of the week.
Bernie was seen even by his own party as a bit too far left. We can debate as to whether that's just or fair but that wasn't my point. For the purpose of winning an election the Democrats had to go for the candidate with the best chance.
highflyer
Well-known member
- Jan 21, 2016
- 2,499
My view would be that Biden may play better with right wing Democrats and has a better chance of winning over some of the (many) republicans that cannot stomach Trump. I hope that, plus the force of the anti-Trump vote, will be enough
However, Bernie could have split Trumps blue-collar vote (he is able to present himself as anti-establishment in a way that Biden cannot), would have been far more energizing for the younger vote and could have ceated an inspirational campaign (rather than just relying on an anti-Trump vote as Biden will). There was plenty of evidence in polling that Bernie would have done as well, if not better than Biden against Trump. Of course we will never know. It is, and will remain, all conjecture. But I would dispute your statement that 'Biden would stand a much greater chance any day of the week'.
One thing that I think gets a little attention is that Bernie was very quick to endorse Biden and urge his supporters to vote for him. I am not sure Biden would have done the same in reverse. And Bernie's (centre left) policy agenda was just much much better than Biden's!
According to numerous news channels Trump is refusing to confirm he will accept this year’s election result. What’s this about? I presumed the incumbent president will have to step down if he loses? Am I missing something?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/19/trump-joe-biden-coronavirus-polls
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/19/trump-joe-biden-coronavirus-polls
It certainly would have been interesting with regards to the blue collar worker. How Bernie interacted with the young vote is not as much of bonus as it's claimed. True, more young people preferred him but this was amongst a smalk voter base. In the nominee contest the under 30 vote never accounted for more than 20% of the electorate (NY Times). So he was very good here but it made no real difference.
There's also the seats in Congress and the Senate. In swing states having Biden on the ticket is going to make it far easier for those republican voters to vote democrat, something I don't think they would with Bernie.
Your point about Bernie advocating support for Biden is well noted, I also wonder if Biden would have done so as quickly.
He's not required to stand down or accept the result thankfully! As soon as his term is over he loses any constitutional power or authority so he'll be forcibly removed.
And if there is no election before the end of the year the Constitution boots him out and the speaker of the house of representatives ( Pelosi ) automatically takes over until there is an election.
Love this thread. Watch Trump get re-elected in November comfortably
It's more than possible. If that did happen I'd be intrigued to see if he dumped those he had no reason to need anymore (e.g. Conservative right). It could get very random.
A realisation maybe are quite comfortable and have been predicting it for well over a year.