[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

And when people complain that they're "overtaxed", what they really mean is that they don't like paying taxes - but still demand world-class and highly-responsive public services.

As a business owner, my company (and myself as an individual) pay a lot of tax

No problem with paying tax - in fact I'd rather pay more providing it went to the right people and places, i.e. front line health workers etc.

Problem is (and my wife works in the public sector so I see/hear first hand the issues) I see the incredible amount of waste, multi-tiered management levels, unsustainable pensions in local government etc.

Raise taxes by all means, but make sure those taxes are spent wisely.

 

[Recidivist]

See my thread about Elizabeth Holmes. When someone can tell people what they want to hear in a way that makes them want to believe them, common sense is left at the door. Who and what you believe are driven by confirmation biases. If you never liked unions, the EU or the nanny state, then you want to believe the cheeky chap who looks you in the eye and says, don't worry, I'll fix it, and cracks a couple of jokes. That's how it worked. And even his detractors tell us he got Brexit done and saved us all from Covid and Corbyn. Only those inside the machine (conservative MPs) can see the truth, and even though they ditched him ruthlessly they remain desperate to convince the public this is simply a slight change in presentation . . . . .

Whether you buy this or not will be determined by your confirmation bias.

How true. Pretty much the way that the algorithms on social media work to reinforce users’ views (prejudices?) and corral them into appropriate echo chambers!

On a different note, I find it quite amusing that so many MPs seem to feel that the new leader must be a committed Brexiteer.

Thought we’d got Brexit done already so why is it a key requirement!?


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[nwgull]

How true. Pretty much the way that the algorithms on social media work to reinforce users’ views (prejudices?) and corral them into appropriate echo chambers!

On a different note, I find it quite amusing that so many MPs seem to feel that the new leader must be a committed Brexiteer.

Thought we’d got Brexit done already so why is it a key requirement!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because the 2019 election was won by securing the votes of angry red-faced people from provincial towns who have been given the EU as an institution to blame for whatever it was that was making them so angry. Those votes will be lost if the party is seen to be being led by someone that might actually want to cooperate with the EU and not be at war with them.

 

[Gwylan]

Whenever the Labour Party pledges higher public spending, the Tories scream "where's the money coming from" or "where's your magic money tree"?

Yet when Tory leadership contenders pledge that they will cut income tax, no-one (except on here!) asks where the money will come from

That's the focus of the new Labour campaign. They ask how they're paying for it by a) cutting services b) additional borrowing or c) the magic money tree?

As I mentioned earlier, very few candidates are answering this question ... and those that do are very vague

 

[Icy Gull]

That's the focus of the new Labour campaign. They ask how they're paying for it by a) cutting services b) additional borrowing or c) the magic money tree?

As I mentioned earlier, very few candidates are answering this question ... and those that do are very vague

Vague politicians, who’d have thought it

None of them are even launching my boat let alone floating it, from any party.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Looks to me like Penny Dreadful is going to get the job.

Grim.

 

[BLOCK F]

Looks to me like Penny Dreadful is going to get the job.

Grim.

I am assuming, rightly or wrongly, that you are not a Tory voter, but out of interest, bearing in mind one of the candidates will become PM, who would you least dislike that to be?

 

[Gwylan]

I am assuming, rightly or wrongly, that you are not a Tory voter, but out of interest, bearing in mind one of the candidates will become PM, who would you least dislike that to be?

That's an interesting question for non-Tories. As a British citizen, I'd like Tugendhat as he's neither stupid nor a swivel-eyed loon but as a non-Tory voter, I'd like Truss, Mordaunt or Braverman as they're totally lightweight

 

[nicko31]

Looks to me like Penny Dreadful is going to get the job.

Grim.

Remember Brexit economic damage is Covid x 2, you can't polish a turd. Whoever gets in is going to struggle fixing the mess, they voted for Johnson and will now have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Remember Brexit economic damage is Covid x 2, you can't polish a turd. Whoever gets in is going to struggle fixing the mess, they voted for Johnson and will now have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Yeh, this winter will be economic and social carnage. Even the most adept government will struggle to find answers. Seeing this lot make me want to go and hide under my duvet

 

[rogersix]

I am assuming, rightly or wrongly, that you are not a Tory voter, but out of interest, bearing in mind one of the candidates will become PM, who would you least dislike that to be?

Got to be truss, I think she has it in her to be even more hilariously, incompetent than bungle.

 

[Peteinblack]

As a business owner, my company (and myself as an individual) pay a lot of tax

No problem with paying tax - in fact I'd rather pay more providing it went to the right people and places, i.e. front line health workers etc.

Problem is (and my wife works in the public sector so I see/hear first hand the issues) I see the incredible amount of waste, multi-tiered management levels, unsustainable pensions in local government etc.

Raise taxes by all means, but make sure those taxes are spent wisely.

Totally agree about the wasteful layers of management in the public sector: I work in Higher Education, and my wife works in the NHS, and both sectors are top-heavy with 'suits' - business managers, marketing consultants, corporate compliance officers, strategic co-ordinators, quality officers, and ever-expanding HR departments.

The irony is that all governments since the 1990s have pursued this increase and expansion of public sector management and bureaucracy on the basis that public sector workers are inherently lazy and incompetent, and so need to be micromanaged and constantly 'performance monitored'. However, this actually compounds the problem it purports to solve, because it means that nurses, police officers, social workers, teachers and university lecturers spend more and more time each year on paper-work, box-ticking, form-filling, strategic reviews, training courses, Away Days, and preparing for the next 'institutional audit'. The result = less time actually treating patients, tackling crime, helping 'problem families', etc.

Governments then say "See, you're crap, so we need even more management of the public sector, becuase you're not doing your jobs properly." Er, no, because politicians won't let us

 

[Jim in the West]

Out of interest, are there any NSC posters with an Indian heritage? I'm keen to understand how someone like Suella Braverman can be so anti-immigrant....her parents came here in the 60s, but presumably now would have difficulty getting into the UK. It seems she is happy to have benefited from the UK's relatively light touch immigration controls fifty or sixty years ago, but now doesn't appear to want others to have the same advantages. But maybe that's just basic Conservatism....look out for yourself!

 

[usernamed]

Not aiming this at any specific post or poster, but I feel a certain concern when those who habitually don’t vote for the Conservatives wish the stupidest/most lethal candidate on us.

We will all (regardless of political allegiance) have to live in whatever environment our incoming Prime Minister creates, and as a British citizen I want our country to be respectable and respected.

Personally I would prefer Tom Tugendhat as PM, but fear he may not have sufficient support among the membership, leaving Penny Mordaunt as potentially the least worst option out of the unholy trinity of Sunak/Mordaunt/Truss.

 

[BLOCK F]

Out of interest, are there any NSC posters with an Indian heritage? I'm keen to understand how someone like Suella Braverman can be so anti-immigrant....her parents came here in the 60s, but presumably now would have difficulty getting into the UK. It seems she is happy to have benefited from the UK's relatively light touch immigration controls fifty or sixty years ago, but now doesn't appear to want others to have the same advantages. But maybe that's just basic Conservatism....look out for yourself!

As a Tory voter, I no idea how or why she forms the views she appears to, and thankfully, I believe, she will soon be out of the running. In a previous post I described her as being rather bonkers or words to that effect.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I am assuming, rightly or wrongly, that you are not a Tory voter, but out of interest, bearing in mind one of the candidates will become PM, who would you least dislike that to be?

I'm both a Tory voter and not a Tory voter.

I voted for Cameron instead of Chaos with Ed Miliband
I voted for Major aeons ago.


My assessment ( worst to best ) :

2 abysmal candidates - Braverman and the one I hadn't heard of before this week.
Penny Dreadful ( ERG, referendum lies ).
Clueless Liz Truss
Sunak - who I've been deeply suspicious of in the past - but is the only one who could beat Starmer.
Tugendhat - borderline competent, basically the "Tory Starmer".


I'll get Tory membership next year just so I get a vote next time.

 

[clapham_gull]

Totally agree about the wasteful layers of management in the public sector: I work in Higher Education, and my wife works in the NHS, and both sectors are top-heavy with 'suits' - business managers, marketing consultants, corporate compliance officers, strategic co-ordinators, quality officers, and ever-expanding HR departments.

The irony is that all governments since the 1990s have pursued this increase and expansion of public sector management and bureaucracy on the basis that public sector workers are inherently lazy and incompetent, and so need to be micromanaged and constantly 'performance monitored'. However, this actually compounds the problem it purports to solve, because it means that nurses, police officers, social workers, teachers and university lecturers spend more and more time each year on paper-work, box-ticking, form-filling, strategic reviews, and preparing for the next 'institutional audit'. The result = less time actually treating patients, tackling crime, helping 'problem families', etc.

Governments then say "See, you're crap, so we need even more management of the public sector, becuase you're not doing your jobs properly." Er, no, because politicians won't let us

Exactly, when people say "public sector" what they is public / private hybrid monster.

Post 1980, it's been of the biggest mistakes in public policy. Private companies often have no little incentive to make things more efficient when they're funded by billions of "other people's" money.

The snail tracks of "management consultancy" are all over the NHS particularly.

 

[beorhthelm]

Out of interest, are there any NSC posters with an Indian heritage? I'm keen to understand how someone like Suella Braverman can be so anti-immigrant....her parents came here in the 60s, but presumably now would have difficulty getting into the UK. It seems she is happy to have benefited from the UK's relatively light touch immigration controls fifty or sixty years ago, but now doesn't appear to want others to have the same advantages. But maybe that's just basic Conservatism....look out for yourself!

discussing with non-anglo saxons recently, seems a common theme, Mexicans in US, Syrians in Greece, Turks in Germany. verdict was its a way to show you're integrated.

 

[Eric the meek]

Out of interest, are there any NSC posters with an Indian heritage? I'm keen to understand how someone like Suella Braverman can be so anti-immigrant....her parents came here in the 60s, but presumably now would have difficulty getting into the UK. It seems she is happy to have benefited from the UK's relatively light touch immigration controls fifty or sixty years ago, but now doesn't appear to want others to have the same advantages. But maybe that's just basic Conservatism....look out for yourself!

No Indian heritage but distant black ancestry from Trinidad. I share your thoughts. I find it hard to fathom the whole Rwanda operation, which becomes even harder to reconcile when you find it was Priti Patel's idea. I recall she was born here, to parents who were Ugandan Asian refugees. Uganda is next door to Rwanda, which is unlikely to be a coincidence. But I still don't understand how she could possibly have entertained such an idea, let alone put it into practice. I can only put it down to a horribly misguided attempt to fit in with the hardline wing of the Conservative party.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Out of interest, are there any NSC posters with an Indian heritage? I'm keen to understand how someone like Suella Braverman can be so anti-immigrant....her parents came here in the 60s, but presumably now would have difficulty getting into the UK. It seems she is happy to have benefited from the UK's relatively light touch immigration controls fifty or sixty years ago, but now doesn't appear to want others to have the same advantages. But maybe that's just basic Conservatism....look out for yourself!

You have answered your own question.