[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Kinky Gerbil]

Underwhelming holding report as it stands

The met police have saved Johnson etc - should have just let Sue Gray do her thing rather than push for police action

 

[Audax]

On one area that got a lot of debate in this very thread (re: the drinking culture), Sue Gray has not held back:

The excessive consumption of alcohol is not appropriate in a professional
workplace at any time. Steps must be taken to ensure that every Government
Department has a clear and robust policy in place covering the consumption of
alcohol in the workplace.

 

[pb21]

Sue Gray's (report) update says there was a "serious failure to observe not just the high standards expected of those working at the heart of Government but also of the standards expected of the entire British population at the time" at some of the gatherings.

Conclusion
24.The gatherings within the scope of this investigation are spread over a 20-month
period – a period that has been unique in recent times in terms of the complexity
and breadth of the demands on public servants and indeed the general public. The
whole of the country rose to the challenge. Ministers, special advisers and the Civil
Service, of which I am proud to be a part, were a key and dedicated part of that
national effort.
However, as I have noted, a number of these gatherings should
not have been allowed to take place or to develop in the way that they did.
There is significant learning to be drawn from these events which must be addressed
immediately across Government. This does not need to wait for the police
investigations to be concluded.

On one area that got a lot of debate in this very thread (re: the drinking culture), Sue Gray has not held back:

That's about as damming a report of this limited scope can get, albeit not unexpected.

 

[rippleman]

Did we really ever think that Gray was ever going to pubish a full report with direct criticism of Johnson? She was never going to be "independent". How could she when Johnson is her boss and her £150K + salary is depending on him.

If she was going to act independently and report "without fear or favour" she would have told Dick, the incompetent head of the "institutionally corrupt" Met Police to **** off when Dick insisted on determining what Gray could and couldn't publish.

Gray is just a civil servant doing what civil servants do; acting at the behest of their political masters.

Dick and the Met will drag this on....and on....and on.

 

[Seasider78]

Sue Gray "update" published: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ent-premises-during-covid-restrictions-update

It is a holding report but ****ing hell we could have written that the first day the investigation was commissioned.

Essentially we have seen enough to know what they were doing was unacceptable this tells us nothing new.

No need for 12 pages could have just written

‘My investigations agree they were massive shits but as the police were the only ones late to the party we now need to wait for them to do something and I can no longer tell you anything of substance’

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

"Steps must be taken to ensure that every Government
Department has a clear and robust policy in place covering the consumption of
alcohol in the workplace"

I think Johnson has that area covered already...

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Did we really ever think that Gray was ever going to pubish a full report with direct criticism of Johnson? She was never going to be "independent". How could she when Johnson is her boss and her £150K + salary is depending on him.

If she was going to act independently and report "without fear or favour" she would have told Dick, the incompetent head of the "instituionally corrupt" Met Police to **** off when Dick insisted on determining what Gray could and couldn't publish.

Gray is just a civil servant doing what civil servants do; acting at the behest of their political masters.

Dick and the Met will drag this on....and on....and on.

Yes, she seems pretty annoyed she cant.

 

[pb21]

Did we really ever think that Gray was ever going to pubish a full report with direct criticism of Johnson? She was never going to be "independent". How could she when Johnson is her boss and her £150K + salary is depending on him.

If she was going to act independently and report "without fear or favour" she would have told Dick, the incompetent head of the "instituionally corrupt" Met Police to **** off when Dick insisted on determining what Gray could and couldn't publish.

Gray is just a civil servant doing what civil servants do; acting at the behest of their political masters.

Dick and the Met will drag this on....and on....and on.

I would disagree the wording of some this is very damming, for example:

“As a result of the Metropolitan police’s investigations, and so as not to prejudice the police investigative process, they have told me that it would only be appropriate to make minimal reference to the gatherings on the dates they are investigating. Unfortunately, this necessarily means that I am extremely limited in what I can say about those events and it is not possible at present to provide a meaningful report setting out and analysing the extensive factual information I have been able to gather.

In respect of the gatherings that the Metropolitan police has assessed as not reaching the threshold for criminal investigation; they have not requested any limitations be placed on the description of those events, however, I have decided not to publish factual accounts in relation to those four dates. I do not feel that I am able to do so without detriment to the overall balance of the findings.”

If you read between the lines it’s quite clear what she thinks.

However, Johnson’s attempt to kybosh this inquiry's scope with the police investigation is ultimately working.

 

[Audax]

Did we really ever think that Gray was ever going to pubish a full report with direct criticism of Johnson? She was never going to be "independent". How could she when Johnson is her boss and her £150K + salary is depending on him.

If she was going to act independently and report "without fear or favour" she would have told Dick, the incompetent head of the "instituionally corrupt" Met Police to **** off when Dick insisted on determining what Gray could and couldn't publish.

Gray is just a civil servant doing what civil servants do; acting at the behest of their political masters.

Dick and the Met will drag this on....and on....and on.

I very much disagree. I think the evidence is clear now that Gray's intentions are to see her full report published as soon as possible, and that she's actually doing as much as she can with this "update" to a) underpin how serious the matter is (there are items in this update that the government, and in particular Boris, will not be able to just shrug off - it's pretty damning / critical in places) and b) make clear that she doesn't see this update as being the end of the matter for her.

The full Sue Gray report will be released eventually (pending Met investigations), and it will be interesting to see what Boris' instincts are when it does get released. At the moment, it looks like he's inclined to not publish it and hope he can sweep it under the carpet, but he might find doing that just as damaging - it will inevitably lead to an Opposition Day "Humble Address" motion to try to force its publication, and if Boris whips the Tories to oppose that could get very, very messy for him.

 

[Bob!]

In line with the terms of reference the following events were in scope:

15 May 2020; a photograph showing a number of groups in the garden of No
10 Downing Street;
• 20 May 2020: a gathering in the garden of No 10 Downing Street for No 10
staff; (now being investigated by Met)
• 18 June 2020: a gathering in the Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall on the departure
of a No 10 private secretary;(now being investigated by Met)
• 19 June 2020: a gathering in the Cabinet room in No 10 Downing Street on the
Prime Minister’s birthday;(now being investigated by Met)
• 13 November 2020:
o a gathering in the No 10 Downing Street flat; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a special
adviser;(now being investigated by Met)
• 27 November 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of
a special adviser;
• 10 December 2020: a gathering in the Department for Education ahead of the
Christmas break;
• 15 December 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street for an online
Christmas quiz;
• 17 December 2020:
o a gathering in Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall to hold an online Christmas
quiz for the Cabinet Secretary’s private office; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall on the departure of a senior
Cabinet Office official; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a No 10 official;(now being investigated by Met)
• 18 December 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street ahead of the
Christmas break;(now being investigated by Met)
• 14 January 2021; a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of two
No 10 private secretaries;(now being investigated by Met)
• 16 April 2021;
o A gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a senior No 10
official;(now being investigated by Met)
o A gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of another No 10
official.(now being investigated by Met)

 

[rippleman]

Yes, she seems pretty annoyed she cant.

She can. Nothing to stop her publishing the full report in its entirety - NOW

(except the risk to her extremely well paid job)

 

[Si Gull]

Perfect result for the Tories. By the time the Met finish their investigation Johnson will have served his purpose and they can appoint the next leader thus 'drawing a line' under the shitshow before the next election. Heaven only knows how the UK has ended up in this state.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

She can. Nothing to stop her publishing the full report in its entirety - NOW

(except the risk to her extremely well paid job)

Unless Ive miss understood, the Police have asked for it not to be published

I am pretty sure that means she cant.

 

[rippleman]

I very much disagree. I think the evidence is clear now that Gray's intentions are to see her full report published as soon as possible, and that she's actually doing as much as she can with this "update" to a) underpin how serious the matter is (there are items in this update that the government, and in particular Boris, will not be able to just shrug off - it's pretty damning / critical in places) and b) make clear that she doesn't see this update as being the end of the matter for her.

The full Sue Gray report will be released eventually (pending Met investigations), and it will be interesting to see what Boris' instincts are when it does get released. At the moment, it looks like he's inclined to not publish it and hope he can sweep it under the carpet, but he might find doing that just as damaging - it will inevitably lead to an Opposition Day "Humble Address" motion to try to force its publication, and if Boris whips the Tories to oppose that could get very, very messy for him.

So answer me this....

She was an INDEPENDENT investigator who was examining the circumstances of the parties "without fear or favour".

So why did she allow or permit Dick to decide what could be published in her report? How is allowing Dick to influence her report acting independently and "without fear or favour"?

 

[Audax]

If you read between the lines it’s quite clear what she thinks.

However, Johnson’s attempt to kybosh this inquiry's scope with the police investigation is ultimately working.

Yes, you've quoted there a key bit: I think it's clear here that Gray has taken a lot of care to ensure that Boris can't use her update as a "look, we did nothing wrong" moment by focussing fully on the 4 gatherings the Met aren't investigating. Withholding that detail (and her reasons for doing so) tells us all we need to know: she wants the full report published, and I think it's also clear that she wants those gatherings that the Met chose to investigate to be centre-stage - not some follow-up watered down because Boris was handed a silver platter to spin into some nice fluffy propaganda.

She's quite neatly withheld, IMO, anything that Boris could utilise to put an overtly positive spin on the situation ahead of the full release.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

In line with the terms of reference the following events were in scope:

15 May 2020; a photograph showing a number of groups in the garden of No
10 Downing Street;
• 20 May 2020: a gathering in the garden of No 10 Downing Street for No 10
staff; (now being investigated by Met)
• 18 June 2020: a gathering in the Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall on the departure
of a No 10 private secretary;(now being investigated by Met)
• 19 June 2020: a gathering in the Cabinet room in No 10 Downing Street on the
Prime Minister’s birthday;(now being investigated by Met)
• 13 November 2020:
o a gathering in the No 10 Downing Street flat; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a special
adviser;(now being investigated by Met)
• 27 November 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of
a special adviser;
• 10 December 2020: a gathering in the Department for Education ahead of the
Christmas break;
• 15 December 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street for an online
Christmas quiz;
• 17 December 2020:
o a gathering in Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall to hold an online Christmas
quiz for the Cabinet Secretary’s private office; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in Cabinet Office, 70 Whitehall on the departure of a senior
Cabinet Office official; (now being investigated by Met)
o a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a No 10 official;(now being investigated by Met)
• 18 December 2020: a gathering in No 10 Downing Street ahead of the
Christmas break;(now being investigated by Met)
• 14 January 2021; a gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of two
No 10 private secretaries;(now being investigated by Met)
• 16 April 2021;
o A gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of a senior No 10
official;(now being investigated by Met)
o A gathering in No 10 Downing Street on the departure of another No 10
official.(now being investigated by Met)

So, does that mean 12 'parties' crossed the threshold to be investigated as breaking the law?

 

[mr sheen]

So nearly all of the parties under her investigation meet the bar for criminal investigation. Including three johnson was definitely at. And one in his flat.

 

[Since1982]

The Met investigation into the 13th Nov party in the Downing Street flat is particularly interesting. The Grey report doesn’t say this is alleged but seems to assume it is a matter of fact. Johnson specifically said this party had not happened when asked about it in the House on 8th Dec. Lying to the House, a resignation matter on its own.

 

[Audax]

So answer me this....

She was an INDEPENDENT investigator who was examining the circumstances of the parties "without fear or favour".

So why did she allow or permit Dick to decide what could be published in her report? How is allowing Dick to influence her report acting independently and "without fear or favour"?

She hasn't allowed anyone to decide what goes in her report. This isn't the report. It's merely an update. The report comes later, once the Met investigation are concluded. At that point, I fully expect Boris will receive a full report as Gray always intended it, with no omissions.

I'd like to see you explain why the update is as scathing as it is if Gray was bending over and taking one on behalf of Boris.

Edit: more to the point, if the police have told her that publishing the full report could jeopardise the issuing of penalties then she is very much well advised to not publish, because by publishing she could do the very thing you're accusing her of: giving Boris an "out".

 

[schmunk]

So answer me this....

She was an INDEPENDENT investigator who was examining the circumstances of the parties "without fear or favour".

So why did she allow or permit Dick to decide what could be published in her report? How is allowing Dick to influence her report acting independently and "without fear or favour"?

That's rather disingenuous. If the Police (Dick) say "don't do that now or you might be prejudicing a Police investigation", then she's best advised not to disobey.