[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Deportivo Seagull]

Like it or not there was a debate to be had. I am not telling you that you are wrong, just that I disagree with you. Perhaps if more people of your political persuasion did similar you would win more elections. Or just stay as you are. I don’t mind.

The point is you voted to leave but clearly haven’t a clue of what the ramifications would be.


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[Thunder Bolt]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...es-to-academic-for-sexist-derogatory-language

Another example of the behaviour of the Met police. I warn you the story is pretty sickening.

It took them 8 years to apologise and pay compensation to university professor Dr Konstacja Duff of Nottingham university.

 

[aolstudios]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...es-to-academic-for-sexist-derogatory-language

Another example of the behaviour of the Met police. I warn you the story is pretty sickening.

It took them 8 years to apologise and pay compensation to university professor Dr Konstacja Duff of Nottingham university.

********

 

[Stato]

Perhaps senior Remainers in Labour and the Liberals who shared the view you have outlined should have stood aside and allowed colleagues who accepted the Referendum result to set policy instead. We will never know.

That's very unrealistic and I think that if you think objectively for a moment you know it. Success through Brexit was the Tories' fantasy. Only the truly indoctrinated could sell that pig because only they hadn't bothered looking in the poke. The other parties had significant majorities of people who knew that it was a runt. Putting a Brexiter in charge of the other parties would have (further) torn them apart and actually left close to 50% of those who voted in the referendum utterly disenfranchised. Your suggestion is akin to asking Tony Bloom to stand aside for a Palace fan with the expectation that we would all follow the new leadership and immediately become enamoured of all the tacky and squalid unpleasantness that supporting them entails.

 

[Happy Exile]

Unfortunately not relevant. The parties all understood the electoral system in 2019 and therefore knew which policies they needed to adopt to win the seats that would have delivered victory. Labour and the Liberals chose instead to preach to the converted. If you want a different electoral system that’s fine but you cannot expect to gain power if you ignore currently existing electoral reality.

It's very relevant. To remind you, it was a response to when you said "Perhaps the other parties should have gone into the election with a positive vision of their own version of Brexit so as to give people a choice ? Stunning own goal never acknowledged by Remainers."

My response shows that they did go into the election and give people a choice, and the majority of people chose what they had to offer not what the Tories had to offer. It's beyond dispute - it's literally facts. It's not just Remain / pro-choice Brexit voters that rejected the Tory plan either, 11% of people who voted UKIP in 2017 voted for parties that weren't the Tories in 2019. The Tories then confuse things by saying it wasn't a single issue election, yet also it gives them a "clear mandate" for their vision of Brexit because that's what people voted for. I'm not sure both those statements can co-exist.

The own goal, as we'll see in coming years, was the Tories deciding the opinions of all those people across the political spectrum - including the 16% of Tory voters who took their votes elsewhere between 2017 and 2019 arguably because of Brexit - counted for nothing. The Tories' own data shows they have low support among the under 45s in voting, and they aren't really getting any kind of significant majority until you get to over 65 years old. Actual membership of the party is heavily skewed away from youth and even middle age. They are going to struggle very soon if they don't change. "Party gate" appears to be landing far worse with the older generation than the younger too - the Tories have a lot of humble pie to eat for a lot of different people. Can they do it though?

I'm curious what you mean by preaching to the converted: Labour's Brexit policy was directly opposite to what even 28% of the people who voted for them wanted. They were very much trying to convert, not preaching to the converted. (Stats from Ashcroft's polling.)

I don't think anyone ignored existing electoral reality - the Tories are just better at playing the system and targeting minimal increase in votes for maximum impact. Too late, other parties are now copying it, whether that creates or diminishes democratic representation is a totally different debate though.

(For what it's worth, I'm pro-EU, Remainer, but not particularly loyal to any party...family is traditionally Tory but not since Cameron became leader...I've personally never voted Tory though and can't currently imagine a situation where I ever would.)

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Angela Rayner Urgent Question incoming

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

The Met investigation is all part of Save Boris.

https://twitter.com/colinrtalbot/status/1485920403855925253?s=20

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I know no one who has died from COVID or has been seriously ill from COVID.

Lucky you. I lost a dear friend of 20 years who died of covid two months after her 41st birthday

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The point is you voted to leave but clearly haven’t a clue of what the ramifications would be.


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The point is that I voted to leave and had as much idea of the ramifications of leaving as you had about those of staying in. The status quo was never on offer. It is a constantly evolving institution. I can remember having exactly this discussion on the Brexit thread in 2016 but if you want to keep rehashing it I’m up for it.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

That's very unrealistic and I think that if you think objectively for a moment you know it. Success through Brexit was the Tories' fantasy. Only the truly indoctrinated could sell that pig because only they hadn't bothered looking in the poke. The other parties had significant majorities of people who knew that it was a runt. Putting a Brexiter in charge of the other parties would have (further) torn them apart and actually left close to 50% of those who voted in the referendum utterly disenfranchised. Your suggestion is akin to asking Tony Bloom to stand aside for a Palace fan with the expectation that we would all follow the new leadership and immediately become enamoured of all the tacky and squalid unpleasantness that supporting them entails.

Labour did have a Brexiter in charge. He just had his hands tied behind his back and the public knew it.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The point is that I voted to leave and had as much idea of the ramifications of leaving as you had about those of staying in. The status quo was never on offer.

In the immediate to mid-term context, at least, this statement is utter nonsense, and you know it.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It's very relevant. To remind you, it was a response to when you said "Perhaps the other parties should have gone into the election with a positive vision of their own version of Brexit so as to give people a choice ? Stunning own goal never acknowledged by Remainers."

My response shows that they did go into the election and give people a choice, and the majority of people chose what they had to offer not what the Tories had to offer. It's beyond dispute - it's literally facts. It's not just Remain / pro-choice Brexit voters that rejected the Tory plan either, 11% of people who voted UKIP in 2017 voted for parties that weren't the Tories in 2019. The Tories then confuse things by saying it wasn't a single issue election, yet also it gives them a "clear mandate" for their vision of Brexit because that's what people voted for. I'm not sure both those statements can co-exist.

The own goal, as we'll see in coming years, was the Tories deciding the opinions of all those people across the political spectrum - including the 16% of Tory voters who took their votes elsewhere between 2017 and 2019 arguably because of Brexit - counted for nothing. The Tories' own data shows they have low support among the under 45s in voting, and they aren't really getting any kind of significant majority until you get to over 65 years old. Actual membership of the party is heavily skewed away from youth and even middle age. They are going to struggle very soon if they don't change. "Party gate" appears to be landing far worse with the older generation than the younger too - the Tories have a lot of humble pie to eat for a lot of different people. Can they do it though?

I'm curious what you mean by preaching to the converted: Labour's Brexit policy was directly opposite to what even 28% of the people who voted for them wanted. They were very much trying to convert, not preaching to the converted. (Stats from Ashcroft's polling.)

I don't think anyone ignored existing electoral reality - the Tories are just better at playing the system and targeting minimal increase in votes for maximum impact. Too late, other parties are now copying it, whether that creates or diminishes democratic representation is a totally different debate though.

(For what it's worth, I'm pro-EU, Remainer, but not particularly loyal to any party...family is traditionally Tory but not since Cameron became leader...I've personally never voted Tory though and can't currently imagine a situation where I ever would.)

In answer to your question I was referring to the realities of the existing electoral system. Labour, in my view, should have targeted Northern Brexit seats. That way the worst case scenario would have been a hung parliament and potential coalition if they could have agreed a common platform. Instead they doubled down on their Remain position and proposed a ridiculous strategy of telling the EU there would be another referendum with them campaigning to remain following ‘negotiations.’ They did not offer a version of leaving to compete with the Tory version despite having members and MPs who would have got behind it. Southern, middle class members won the battle but lost the war. I understand your views and voting background but think that many on your side like to stereotype leave voters. My anti EU views were formed when I was a member of the Labour Party and Young Socialists. In those days the EU case was made most strongly by the Tories. It is the Labour party that has moved away from me not the other way around. I have drifted to the Centre with age but still believe in nationalization, state funded health care and not being in the EU. I voted Tory in 2019 entirely because of the concerted attempts in Parliament and the courts to reverse Brexit. I would do so again if faced with the same choices.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

In the immediate to mid-term context, at least, this statement is utter nonsense, and you know it.

We were given a once in a generation referendum not a promise of short, medium and long term votes. I know that.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

The point is you voted to leave but clearly haven’t a clue of what the ramifications would be.


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The ramifications are people like you still banging on about Brexit


Regards
DF

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The ramifications are people like you still banging on about Brexit


Regards
DF

People are clearly, going to continue to 'bang on' about it, when literally no aspect of leaving the EU has been satisfactorily resolved.

Trade in both directions is ****ed. Fishing is ****ed. Farming is ****ed. Co-operation with international policing is ****ed. International diplomatic relations are ****ed.

And 5 times as many people are crossing the channel illegally, because of a complete breakdown in co-operation with our EU partners. That one I'm sure particularly resonates with you.

Anyone claiming Brexit 'is done' is a complete moron.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

In answer to your question I was referring to the realities of the existing electoral system. Labour, in my view, should have targeted Northern Brexit seats. That way the worst case scenario would have been a hung parliament and potential coalition if they could have agreed a common platform. Instead they doubled down on their Remain position and proposed a ridiculous strategy of telling the EU there would be another referendum with them campaigning to remain following ‘negotiations.’ They did not offer a version of leaving to compete with the Tory version despite having members and MPs who would have got behind it. Southern, middle class members won the battle but lost the war. I understand your views and voting background but think that many on your side like to stereotype leave voters. My anti EU views were formed when I was a member of the Labour Party and Young Socialists. In those days the EU case was made most strongly by the Tories. It is the Labour party that has moved away from me not the other way around. I have drifted to the Centre with age but still believe in nationalization, state funded health care and not being in the EU. I voted Tory in 2019 entirely because of the concerted attempts in Parliament and the courts to reverse Brexit. I would do so again if faced with the same choices.

Do you know why the court tried to reverse Brexit? Because Theresa May's QC James Eadie, admitted the referendum was only advisory, not mandatory. If it had been mandatory, it would have been annulled for legal reasons. It was just an opinion poll.

That's why other parties were pushing for a second referendum on the deal, when the public knew what was available.

The Tories knew then they were breaking the law and have continued to break the law over two years later. This country is a laughing stock around the world.

 

[Simster]

People are clearly, going to continue to 'bang on' about it, when literally no aspect of leaving the EU has been satisfactorily resolved.

Trade in both directions is ****ed. Fishing is ****ed. Farming is ****ed. Co-operation with international policing is ****ed. International diplomatic relations are ****ed.

And 5 times as many people are crossing the channel illegally, because of a complete breakdown in co-operation with our EU partners. That one I'm sure particularly resonates with you.

Anyone claiming Brexit 'is done' is a complete moron.

Calling [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] for the tap in.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

People are clearly, going to continue to 'bang on' about it, when literally no aspect of leaving the EU has been satisfactorily resolved.

Trade in both directions is ****ed. Fishing is ****ed. Farming is ****ed. Co-operation with international policing is ****ed. International diplomatic relations are ****ed.

And 5 times as many people are crossing the channel illegally, because of a complete breakdown in co-operation with our EU partners. That one I'm sure particularly resonates with you.

Anyone claiming Brexit 'is done' is a complete moron.

No it's not done , but people still moaning about it isn't going to change anything ,Rip up the protocol and go WTO might though .....leave means leave

Regards
DF

 

[Happy Exile]

[snip] Instead they doubled down on their Remain position and proposed a ridiculous strategy of telling the EU there would be another referendum with them campaigning to remain following ‘negotiations.’ [snip] .

Sorry to come again with facts, but this is what Labour's policy was - it's not doubling down on a Remain position or campaigning to remain. It's literally what the majority of the country actually voted for in their choice of parties - a chance to have a final say in the outcome:

"Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide."

The only thing they ruled out was a "no deal" Brexit but then the Tories spent a lot of time ruling that out too.

I'm always hugely impressed when people say they knew what they were getting when they voted to Leave because they must have had greater foresight and understanding of issues like Northern Ireland than even the most ardent pro-Leave and most pessimistic pro-Remain figures had and incredible laser focus through the mixed messaging.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I see its gone the normal way of a Brexit thread