to Buzzer and others who hang to the right

[Herr Tubthumper]

Really? Why ever would you want to do that?

Why not?

 

[looney]

That's the USA that has lost 100,000 jobs so far this month? And it's only the 12th. One chief economist is predicting 550,000-600,000 jobs lost per MONTH for the next few months. Which will go up substantially if any of the big 3 car manufacturers goes belly up. The same USA that is expecting 10% unemployment in 2010? The same USA that is worried it might be heading for another great depression?

If so, I'd hardly call it Utopia.

er yes, thats called a recession. They like the UK had one in the early 80's, thats because of the business cycles and other factors. Try to take a longer view. Oh and I said there wasn't any Utopia.

stop trying to project your leftwing fantacies of what you beleive are rightwing views.

 

[Northern Seagull]

I live in Barnsley, no need to go anywhere else

 

[Juan Albion]

er yes, thats called a recession. They like the UK had one in the early 80's, thats because of the business cycles and other factors. Try to take a longer view. Oh and I said there wasn't any Utopia.

stop trying to project your leftwing fantacies of what you beleive are rightwing views.

Stop trying to project your fantasies on reality. This is a bit more than just a recession.

 

[looney]

Looney has suggested USA that's fine with me, I am seeking options.

Loony, is ther any particular state there or city, which you think has got the balance right between the "strenghths" you highlight and a good welfare?

As a note, are you right about its having the highest GDP per head?

Well Conneticut is quite wealthy and has quite a lot of welfare bills I beleive but its a bit difficult to seperate it all with federal taxes and obligations.

No I'm probably wrong about GDP, I'm sure Switzerland and luxembourg have higher for starters.

Its a bit like tea leaf reading, a combo of GDP per capita, population size, resources, capital investment and even things like number of registered patents. Its the sale that makes a big impact.

Indians are still relativley poor but there are so many of them that they can still raise significant amounts of revenue, like china, hence thier space/missile programmes.

If you look at renewable energy sources, Geothermal energy for example, or even the mickey mouse ones like solar the USA is well placed.

It also needs remembering that poverty levels are boosted by immigration as most incomers start at the bottom, some taking a generaTION TO BEGIN TO RISE. This covers the USA and the uk, what should be looked at is entrenched poverty excluding primery sectors.

In the USA this covers inner cities in the north and the East mainly.

 

[looney]

Stop trying to project your fantasies on reality. This is a bit more than just a recession.

It is or it is what you would like it to be? Yes the indicaters are bad but there are various reasons why it wont be as bad as the 30's.

Learning from history/Avoiding protectionism.

The fact that america is not the only big economy.

The low population density which allows the country to recover and rebuild quickly. This period reminds me of pre 1890's america with stagnation, shortage of Capital and recession. Then the klondike struck gold and that kick started the USA economy again and boosted world trade.

I dont beleive Brown when he says 6 months, the oecd may be right in 2 years but no one really knows for sure, apart from you aparently.

 

[Nottseagull]

Anyhow I look for a nation where the rivers run really blue.

You should try China - their's are pretty badly polluted.

 

[London Calling]

Apart from Obamaville and Canada - i never really did get an alternative to the nordi

Apart from Obamaville and Canada - i never really did get an alternative to the nordic social economies

 

[ferring seagull]

Posted by Gillivers Travels

Greece is pretty damn good! Wonderful Mediterranean climate, amazing beaches, never rains in the summer, lots of cheap, fresh food, minimal crime rates, incredibly friendly people, wide open roads, good and affordable healthcare system...

...er, everyone smokes, Byzantine bureaucracy, strict job demarcation, old-fashioned retailing, shocking customer service, strikes, the occasional riot...

Blink and you could imagine it was Britain in the 1970s...

Was there something I heard about corruption being beyond belief etc

 

[guano]

For their part, Rwanda has been quietly building a quite dynamic state post genocide. One of the largest female to male members of parliment ratios, strong anti corruption stance and you cant even take a plastic bag through customs as they've banned them from the whole country.

I am aware of Paul Kagame's egotistical cling to power, but he has been building a good liberal model for African countries, if you ignore his power clinging!

 

[Colossal Squid]

Apart from Obamaville and Canada - i never really did get an alternative to the nordic social economies

It's because there aren't any good right wing equivalents. I think the nearest you get are some of the shady tax havens like the Cayman Islands where nobody pays any tax so you have to be wealthy to look after yourself.

It is no coincidence that the happiest nations on Earth are those with predominantly left wing governments. As mentioned originally in this thread there is a lot to be said for the Scandinavian countries, of which I'd probably choose Denmark myself. Sweden is a very well run country but the price of beer makes me lean towards Denmark. Norway is even more expensive on the booze and Finland is just that bit too close to Russia. However they are all lovely countries with a very high standard of living.

My sister and brother in law emigrated to Sweden about three years ago and it's embarrassing how much greater their quality of life is. Lovely big homes for a fraction of what we have to pay and the utility bills are minuscule compared with ours.

I have a TINY one bedroom flat in Brighton that costs me more than my sister and her husband pay for a large, modern three bedroom flat in Skane. The gas and electricity are included in the rent which means in winter they can easily leave the heating on all the time to combat the chilly outside (when I last visited it was minus 25 out) AND they don't even need to feel guilty about wasting resources as most of the country's energy needs are met by renewable sources (predominantly hydro power).

I'm not so blinkered as to assume Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries don't have their share of problems but when you compare them with our problems, we lose, badly. Excellent healthcare puts our NHS to shame, the railways are a model of efficiency (in conditions far more extreme than you'll ever see in Britain), your rights as an employee are many and generous and when it comes to unemployment benefits you won't find a better deal anywhere else in the world. Essentially the Swedes just know how to look after their people. Yes it gets very cold, your taxes are generally higher than we are used to and it is not cheap to go out for food and drink BUT they've got their priorities right. Your basic cost of living is reasonable and affordable, in stark contrast to life in the UK where vast swathes of people don't earn anywhere near enough to live even a meagre lifestyle.

It's a model that works, and whilst Greece, Ireland, Portugal and (soon) Spain go bankrupt there are NO signs that the strong Scandinavian economies are about to saddle the EU with more problems (although obviously Norway wouldn't anyway, not being a member). In short they're doing it right and I just don't understand why more countries (like ourselves) don't vote to emulate their success. The disgusting way in which the tax evading rich are rewarded whilst the majority live in squalor in this country makes me sick. The model is there for us to follow and yet we just find ourselves getting further and further away from a fair and just society.

I'm very seriously considering learning Danish so that I may one day emigrate to Denmark in order to live more comfortably, but I would miss the Albion. I think that's it though. Even their national team has enjoyed success in my lifetime (unlike our piss poor representatives).

In short then, Sweden and Denmark get my vote as the closest to Utopia as you'll find on this planet. If only other countries followed suit

 

[Colossal Squid]

For their part, Rwanda has been quietly building a quite dynamic state post genocide. One of the largest female to male members of parliment ratios

Actually I believe it is THE highest ratio of women to men in parliament, anywhere in the world

 

[glasfryn]

I went to Sweden many years ago for 6 weeks and the place was amazing a slightly left Labour government and a really good NHS copied from ours only better
yes very Utopian but there were only 9 million people living there, we had at the time I think about 58 million in a smaller country and a huge Commonwealth to look after Wars to win or lose (I think the last war Sweden were involved in was against San Marino)

nevertheless a great place and nice people who for some reason love the British

 

[Colossal Squid]

I went to Sweden many years ago for 6 weeks and the place was amazing a slightly left Labour government and a really good NHS copied from ours only better
yes very Utopian but there were only 9 million people living there, we had at the time I think about 58 million in a smaller country and a huge Commonwealth to look after Wars to win or lose (I think the last war Sweden were involved in was against San Marino)

nevertheless a great place and nice people who for some reason love the British

Also, NONE of them are fat and pretty much ALL the women are HOT

 

[glasfryn]

Also, NONE of them are fat and pretty much ALL the women are HOT

true and they did love a party

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

In short then, Sweden and Denmark get my vote as the closest to Utopia as you'll find on this planet. If only other countries followed suit

I studied Politics at uni. During the course on Marxism my professor mentioned that Sweden is the closest a country has come to being a Marxist state as envisioned by Marx.

 

[NMH]

Also, NONE of them are fat and pretty much ALL the women are HOT

The competition is astounding for hotness.
Girls dress up, lads dress down - it's not cool to try, try too hard, look like they are trying, or look like they even care. They wear jeans with holes and rust stains, but they cost extra.
Lardy chavs with mouthy nasty attitudes are almost completely non-existent, and sexy doesn't mean crude showing of crotches and breasts (because that actually isn't sexy and they're aware of that)

Women recoil from being approached - it must be a natural feeling meeting or else it's an affront to them, cheapening. They must feel like they have control in the situation.

Winters are long, and almost always include loads of snow and ice. The sea was frozen, every lake made for a nice walk (paths made in the snow especially). The roads were sanded and pavements gritted. None of that "shortage of salt" bullshit - they just get it done, and have people for that, as well as clearing roofs when the melt begins (building owners are responsible if someone gets hit by falling icicles or snow drifts)

Transport is quality, locals are furious if there's a lapse in that.

Equality in the workplace is essential. Bosses better not screw employees around or try intimidation - employees are protected by unions, benefits, and social rules and regs! Thatcher screwed Brits out of that years ago - people who say the unions were ruining the country? Please, you better be one of the % of super-wealthy to say that she represented you!

Work and you can have, simple. Lots of holidays, second houses, nice car, eat at good restaurants, etc. They don't actually work harder than any other countrymen, they just get more from it.

They buy Swedish. Okay so Volvo is Chinese now, but they are made in Sweden still - and almost everyone drives a Volvo. and has Ikea stuff in the house. Small country, and the stuff that went big, went very big. Ericsson phones, Scandia trucks (etc).

Swedes are indignant at any threat to their total freedom. Which is why they now suffer from hooliganism at football like we had 30 years ago.
They need to buck up about that, and declare sport venues special as no-tolerance-to-crime areas. They are now looking at how we dealt with our issues, as parents are not bringing kids to games because of problems in crowd behavior. They are loath to accede to CCTV, id, and other things that require they have personal responsibility!

 

[Colossal Squid]

And so speaks a man who knows. Good stuff NMH.

I'm planning a trip to Stockholm later this year but hear it's very expensive. Is this a rule across the board or are there bargains to be had if I want to go out for a reasonably priced simple meal (probably with lots of Herring!) with a sub £10 beer or two?

Sounds like a fantastic city

 

[NMH]

It's because there aren't any good right wing equivalents. I think the nearest you get are some of the shady tax havens like the Cayman Islands where nobody pays any tax so you have to be wealthy to look after yourself.

It is no coincidence that the happiest nations on Earth are those with predominantly left wing governments. As mentioned originally in this thread there is a lot to be said for the Scandinavian countries, of which I'd probably choose Denmark myself. Sweden is a very well run country but the price of beer makes me lean towards Denmark. Norway is even more expensive on the booze and Finland is just that bit too close to Russia. However they are all lovely countries with a very high standard of living.

My sister and brother in law emigrated to Sweden about three years ago and it's embarrassing how much greater their quality of life is. Lovely big homes for a fraction of what we have to pay and the utility bills are minuscule compared with ours.

I have a TINY one bedroom flat in Brighton that costs me more than my sister and her husband pay for a large, modern three bedroom flat in Skane. The gas and electricity are included in the rent which means in winter they can easily leave the heating on all the time to combat the chilly outside (when I last visited it was minus 25 out) AND they don't even need to feel guilty about wasting resources as most of the country's energy needs are met by renewable sources (predominantly hydro power).

I'm not so blinkered as to assume Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries don't have their share of problems but when you compare them with our problems, we lose, badly. Excellent healthcare puts our NHS to shame, the railways are a model of efficiency (in conditions far more extreme than you'll ever see in Britain), your rights as an employee are many and generous and when it comes to unemployment benefits you won't find a better deal anywhere else in the world. Essentially the Swedes just know how to look after their people. Yes it gets very cold, your taxes are generally higher than we are used to and it is not cheap to go out for food and drink BUT they've got their priorities right. Your basic cost of living is reasonable and affordable, in stark contrast to life in the UK where vast swathes of people don't earn anywhere near enough to live even a meagre lifestyle.

It's a model that works, and whilst Greece, Ireland, Portugal and (soon) Spain go bankrupt there are NO signs that the strong Scandinavian economies are about to saddle the EU with more problems (although obviously Norway wouldn't anyway, not being a member). In short they're doing it right and I just don't understand why more countries (like ourselves) don't vote to emulate their success. The disgusting way in which the tax evading rich are rewarded whilst the majority live in squalor in this country makes me sick. The model is there for us to follow and yet we just find ourselves getting further and further away from a fair and just society.

I'm very seriously considering learning Danish so that I may one day emigrate to Denmark in order to live more comfortably, but I would miss the Albion. I think that's it though. Even their national team has enjoyed success in my lifetime (unlike our piss poor representatives).

In short then, Sweden and Denmark get my vote as the closest to Utopia as you'll find on this planet. If only other countries followed suit

Yep. Except I would like to point out that the crappy beer that costs too much is levied in bars - so Swedes drink before they go out, and drink little once in the clubs or bars (understandably). It's because of the high taxes on service products.

Also - not agreed about health care. They can make mistakes just like the UK. It's socialized, but I don't think it worse in Britain than Sweden.
A good doc. will look after you properly in England, as they ought to anywhere else.

 

[Colossal Squid]

In fairness I've not had too bad experience of the NHS myself but I get the distinct impression that things get done a lot quicker in Sweden. However when you've got far less population to worry about, who are generally healthier (I'm pretty sure as a percentage there are far fewer Swedes who smoke and are obese when compared with the UK), it stands to reason really.

Anyway [MENTION=192]NMH[/MENTION], tell me about Stockholm. I need to be prepared