The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

There are some EU laws and regulations that are just plain stupid and I just highlighted 2 of the daft ones.

Seemingly stupid. But these rules are not just invented for the fun of it or to give Little Englanders a hard on. They're created for specific reason. And I find it highly hypocritical that these accusations stem from a nation that legally defined dance music as "a series of repative beats" and has a law that states it's illegal to drink a beer at 14:46 in a football lounge but it's okay if you just pull down a blind. You want nonsense beurocratic laws; the UK is full of them.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Seemingly stupid. But these rules are not just invented for the fun of it or to give Little Englanders a hard on. They're created for specific reason. And I find it highly hypocritical that these accusations stem from a nation that legally defined dance music as "a series of repative beats" and has a law that states it's illegal to drink a beer at 14:46 in a football lounge but it's okay if you just pull down a blind. You want nonsense beurocratic laws; the UK is full of them.

I agree with you wholeheartedly

 

[Maldini]

The EU should have always been about economic union/trade deals/business.Not about political union and not about free movement for workers.

How is Poland coping losing so many of it's young workers.What is Poland getting from the EU.
Joining the EU was always going to benefit the poorer countries.

I don't want the Remain people to tell me I can also go abroad to live and work.Who wants to go to Poland,Bulgaria or Romania.
How many young british workers have moved abroad.Very very few in relation to other nationalities coming here.

 

[Captain Sensible]

1.) I don't know anyone that thinks that or has suggested that is the case.

2.) How do you know this? Free movement more important than a mutually beneficial trade deal?

3.) We are not Norway.

Bonus question why would our deal not be more like the Canadian example where they negotiated increased access to the single market and removed 99% of tariffs with no free movement of people stipulation?

1. It's the only argument I've heard from the Brexit campaign to avoid free movement.
2. All member states will insist on this, it's the foundation block on which the EU is built.
3. No but after Brexit, we will be similar.


Edited to respond to your last question, The Canadian deal is without services. They also don't have a tariff free trade deal. Also they didn't have to negotiate a withdrawl.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The EU should have always been about economic union/trade deals/business.Not about political union and not about free movement for workers.

How is Poland coping losing so many of it's young workers.What is Poland getting from the EU.
Joining the EU was always going to benefit the poorer countries.

I don't want the Remain people to tell me I can also go abroad to live and work.Who wants to go to Poland,Bulgaria or Romania.
How many young british workers have moved abroad.Very very few in relation to other nationalities coming here.

Initially yes you are right I think the majority of us wish it were that way, but it isn't that way anymore. We can only change it by being in it. It is an almost perfect 'you can't live with them but you can't live without them' scenario. However, it is a 'would rather not live with them, but we're screwed without them'.

 

[Buzzer]

I didn't mean to say they were important to you. I did ask, what law you are hoping the UK government will overturn to make your life easier and is worth risking the economic hardships post Brexit.

I don't want to labour the point but you did specifically say that was what I was alluding to.

What EU laws would I like overturned? For a start, a very topical one would be to allow our government to intervene to protect key industries directly either through grants/subsidies, loans or preferential bidding rights.

I'm certainly not saying that all EU-originated law is necessarily bad but I don't think the one size fits all approach works all the time because Europe is not one homogenous culture and also I think there are occasions when national self-interest such as trying to protect our steel industry is more important than being a good European.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Reread what Sten_Super said

"I understand and respect your reasons for voting out. However I have to pull you up on this, because it's not correct. As a professional economist I don't know a single colleague who thinks we wouldn't be worse off if we left the EU. In the FT survey of 100 top economists in December 2015, 76 thought that the UK would be worse off in the medium term, 18 said no difference and 8 said we'd be better off. It's not complete consensus but for a notoriously divided profession it's not bad."

I can't tell you Burnley will get promoted, but they probably will. We have to operate with incomplete information but when you take what information is available to you and it all points towards the same conclusion that is a good basis on which to make decisions. You can't simply ignore what the evidence suggests will happen. Can you really ignore what 76 out of 100 top economists are telling you simply because you don't personally agree with it? If the shoe were on the other foot I would hope I'd be able to check my own biases.

I can't believe you are trying to suggest the variables involved in the promotion race are at all analogous to the future path of dozens of economies across Europe. What were the opinions of those 76 'top economists' on joining the Euro? If the shoe was on the other foot I would hope I wasn't quite so gullible in believing opinion which is notoriously unreliable sourced from a biased pro EU paper.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There are various Free Trade Agreements in place and in the pipeline,there are also BilateralI agreements,customs unions,Association Agreements,and Economic Partnership Agreements which open up EU markets to the signatories.

this is the only all in one list i can find atm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement

the point is,there are various different options open that could be negotiated to suit a tailored UK deal,that would have our interests at heart.
and note all the FTA`s that do not involve signing up to freedom of movement as a condition

and as with any trade deal it has to be mutually beneficial. So, it's unlikely to have all your interests at heart. As an aside the EU will have the UK over a barrel with Britain's EU financial services surplus. If the UK had a more balanced economy it could maybe ride the storm....sadly it doesn't.

 

[Captain Sensible]

I don't want to labour the point but you did specifically say that was what I was alluding to.

What EU laws would I like overturned? For a start, a very topical one would be to allow our government to intervene to protect key industries directly either through grants/subsidies, loans or preferential bidding rights.

I'm certainly not saying that all EU-originated law is necessarily bad but I don't think the one size fits all approach works all the time because Europe is not one homogenous culture and also I think there are occasions when national self-interest such as trying to protect our steel industry is more important than being a good European.

You alluded that the taking back of laws most important. Maybe they are to you. But they aren't worth taking back by gambling our economy IMO.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I agree with you wholeheartedly

I know. Whilst my post was a reply to you it was aimed at others.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

1. It's the only argument I've heard from the Brexit campaign to avoid free movement.
2. All member states will insist on this, it's the foundation block on which the EU is built.
3. No but after Brexit, we will be similar.

We must be listening to different people.

Just your opinion then.

Same as above.

Bonus question? The Canada deal includes services

The agreement will remove over 99% of tariffs between the two economies and create sizeable new market access opportunities in services and investment.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/canada/

 

[Captain Sensible]

We must be listening to different people.

Just your opinion then.

Same as above.

Bonus question?

Sorry I edited to add the bonus question above. Also curious how you think Canada has a 99% free trade deal?

As you pointed out, we are not Norway and neither are we Canada.

 

[Buzzer]

You alluded that the taking back of laws most important. Maybe they are to you. But they aren't worth taking back by gambling our economy IMO.

Okay. We can agree to disagree on that. Can we at least agree that my answer to the question what law would I take back is not based on me being a petty bigoted Little Englander, not based on a bullshit story from the Express and not some trivial thing of no real consequence to our lives?

 

[Captain Sensible]

Okay. We can agree to disagree on that. Can we at least agree that my answer to the question what law would I take back is not based on me being a petty bigoted Little Englander, not based on a bullshit story from the Express and not some trivial thing of no real consequence to our lives?

Agreed

 

[Buzzer]

Agreed

Excellent! I'm gonna go to bed now!

 

[pastafarian]

Also curious how you think Canada has a 99% free trade deal?

99% of tariffs being removed between Canada and the EU is a lie

its 98%

 

[pastafarian]

lets end these free movement lies that we have to sign up to it no matter what

when the EU Free Trade Agreements were made with Mexico and South Korea did they involve free movement? Do the Free Trade Agreements waiting to be ratified with Columbia and Peru include free movement? Do the EU Free Trade Agreements under negotiation with Australia,New Zealand,Singapore,Vietnam,Thailand, Philippines,Malaysia,Ecuador,India or Japan insist on free movement.Do the extensive trade agreements with Canada(CETA) or USA(TTIP) also include free movement?

The EU can insist all they want,the fact is a Brexit vote is also a vote to end free movement to the UK.

If this does occur I await the first jackass who will commit political suicide and will openly say they will ignore the referendum result and will enter into negotiations with the EU to continue free movement.

 

[Maldini]

I remember predictions from 'experts' of irreparable damage to our trade by not joining the Euro - and a lot of the same people are major players in the Remain campaign and making similar predictions if we go Brexit.

Great post.

 

[Captain Sensible]

99% of tariffs being removed between Canada and the EU is a lie

its 98%

Firstly it's not Financial Services, and that's a large chunk of the UK's exports to the EU. Secondly it's not been ratified so it's an unagreed deal. Lastly things like meat and food have restrictions on them. Also Canada had to allow all EU countries visa free entry amoungst other things.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

and as with any trade deal it has to be mutually beneficial. So, it's unlikely to have all your interests at heart. As an aside the EU will have the UK over a barrel with Britain's EU financial services surplus. If the UK had a more balanced economy it could maybe ride the storm....sadly it doesn't.

We would be the EU's biggest trading partner on goods and one of if not the biggest export market. The Eurozone is in a mess, Europe's overall economy is relatively weak, fragile and faltering which may go some way in enhancing our negotiating position.