The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[drew]

Sovereignty is relative. We are sovereign to a degree, and we are independent to a degree. The UK has signed a multitude of international agreements which in one way or another limit this sovereignty and our independence. Largely we enter these positions freely because we realise that we all benefit being subject to WTO regulation, and we all benefit from being members of the ECHR. In signing up to these we pool sovereignty. Yet this sovereign ability to act is also material. In the Suez Crisis we used our sovereign right as a state to attempt to enact regime change in Egypt. The US slapped us down. We weren't as sovereign as we thought we were. We did the same to Argentina in the Falklands.

The point is this idea of sovereignty is subject to exogenous forces that we cannot completely control. We are subject to this political gravity whether we refuse to see it or not. The same is true of the EU. We would not suddenly become markedly more sovereign after a Brexit renegotiation - we would sign new treaties which limit this sovereignty; we would have to abide free movement, a membership fee and EU law and regulation as a price to do business with the world's single largest economy and our biggest trading partner. We would not float above all these forces. At the same time our sovereignty is furthered reduced because we do not have a voice on these laws and regulations which will still apply to us. We just have to swallow them like Norway does.

That is not sovereignty - that is practically less control over our own economy than we presently enjoy! It is more democratic if we have an EU commissioner and MEPs fighting our corner and representing us in Brussels, rather than tapping on the windows from the outside. Inside the EU we can hold it to account, outside we can stamp our feet and go red with impotent rage. It doesn't matter we'll be subject to the economic gravity of the EU. Cameron is exactly right when he talks about the illusion of sovereignty if we leave.

I agree with what a lot of what you have said however, we don't need to abide to free movement and a membership fee just to do business with the EU. We can have trade agreements outside of that, just as other countries do. For example, US trade with the EU, as do China and Japan and a host of others but they don't have to abide by EU free movement rules or pay a fee for the privilege. However if we want closer links than most, similar to Norway and Switzerland then yes, we do abide by the free movement rules and pay a fee without having a say about those rules.

 

[drew]

Would never vote for the Labour party again, but I'm utterly disgusted how silent they are on this whole EU issue. Hardly anyone from the party is coming out as Leave. The party that is meant is stand for democracy, what an utter joke they are.

Suppose they are hoping we stay in the EU, Cameron screws up, and come the next election they will have an extra 2-3 million suckers who end up voting for them. The party of mass immigration all over again. People need to wake up, at least if we Leave then we can control our borders from the EU. We have loosened the ties with the EU and could campaign for better borders. No single party will be told what to do because of stupid EU laws.

Most labour seem to want to stay in the EU but of course that isn't a story as far as the media are concerned. What excites them is Boris v Cameron, or Gove v Cameron etc.

 

[brighton fella]

if YES wins this referendum then never again after june 23rd shall i bother to vote again. what is the point...
general elections will be totally meaningless and a complete waste of time, for what it is worth you may as well scrap parliament completely and do away with it's many mp's for what good they could ever achieve.. what f*cking use are they to us if their hands are tied to the EU and the voice of the british people counts for sweet f*ck all. :total waste of money.
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[brighton fella]

Would never vote for the Labour party again, but I'm utterly disgusted how silent they are on this whole EU issue. Hardly anyone from the party is coming out as Leave. The party that is meant is stand for democracy, what an utter joke they are.

Suppose they are hoping we stay in the EU, Cameron screws up, and come the next election they will have an extra 2-3 million suckers who end up voting for them. The party of mass immigration all over again. People need to wake up, at least if we Leave then we can control our borders from the EU. We have loosened the ties with the EU and could campaign for better borders. No single party will be told what to do because of stupid EU laws.

only kate hoey so far, the rest are so silent because the EU represents a lot of socialist idea's.
kate hoey seems far too clued up to be in the labour party..

 

[Deleted member 22389]

if YES wins this referendum then never again after june 23rd shall i bother to vote again. what is the point...
general elections will be totally meaningless and a complete waste of time, for what it is worth you may as well scrap parliament completely and do away with it's many mp's for what good they could ever achieve.. what f*cking use are they to us if their hands are tied to the EU and the voice of the british people counts for sweet f*ck all. :total waste of money.
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...

If the vote is Remain it will be the following choice

Go with the current party that likes British people, is Eurosceptic and does nothing about immigration
or
Go with the party that hates British people, supports the EU and will never do anything about immigration

 

[Deleted member 22389]

only kate hoey so far, the rest are so silent because the EU represents a lot of socialist idea's.
kate hoey seems far too clued up to be in the labour party..

I forgot about Kate Hoey, so that's 1 who has at least some common sense.

 

[5ways]

Why.?..if she says £50m gross..... then that is the truth......you do know what gross means? ..... she didn't say gross anyway... she quoted correctly that we pay more than 53m per day into the EU....

It is incorrect to say we pay 53m a day. https://next.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

Mythbusting: Does the EU cost Britain £55m a day?

Many Eurosceptics rage against the UK’s annual £18bn transfer to the EU. Nigel Farage, leader of the pro-Brexit UK Independence party, has claimed that being in the bloc costs Britain £55m a day — which adds up to more than £20bn a year.

But the UK’s net transfer to the EU falls far short of such claims. A rebate secured by Margaret Thatcher in 1984 emphatically reduced the bill from the headline figure. London sent £13bn to Brussels last year. Against that, the UK received £4.5bn from the EU in regional aid and agricultural subsidies, and the private sector received a further £1.4bn direct from the EU budget.

That takes the net cost of membership to about £7bn, less than half a per cent of national income — about £260 a year for each British household.

Another often-quoted figure — the reported £33bn cost of regulation — comes from an impact assessment by Open Europe, a think-tank, of 100 EU rules. But it is based on only one side of the balance sheet. Even though he does not like many of these regulations, Raoul Ruparel, the think-tank’s co-director, says the benefits of the regulations are “much higher” than the costs and “clearly not all of [the costs] would disappear after Brexit”.

 

[5ways]

I agree with what a lot of what you have said however, we don't need to abide to free movement and a membership fee just to do business with the EU. We can have trade agreements outside of that, just as other countries do. For example, US trade with the EU, as do China and Japan and a host of others but they don't have to abide by EU free movement rules or pay a fee for the privilege. However if we want closer links than most, similar to Norway and Switzerland then yes, we do abide by the free movement rules and pay a fee without having a say about those rules.

I am fairly confident that the EU will add these stipulations to our trade agreement. "The package of stopping free movement, but remaining in the single market and being free to liberalise the [EU’s] external tariff seems to be pie in the sky
Professor Nick Crafts of Warwick University" https://next.ft.com/content/70d0bfd8-d1b3-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

 

[5ways]

So we would be more insular, not trade focused and not globally minded while re negotiating a trade relationship with the EU, trade deals with numerous other countries around the world (after regaining the freedom to do so) ...

Our relative strength in these negotiations is irrelevant to the fact they would still have to take place. Rewriting deals once again doesn't support your initial arguments nor does post Brexit economic uncertainty.

Yes the US national interest is different to ours they want us in the EU come what may and would never cede the amount of sovereignty and decision making that we have done. We will see what position they take when and if this actually happens and who will be speaking for them then. Negotiating mutually advantageous trade deals with independent countries is achievable more so with an Ally that will most likely require our support at the G7,G20, NATO ,WTO,UN and numerous other instances.

you persist with the illusion that being nimble is to be powerful. Again, you say we will see what position they take post-Brexit. Well the US has told us and it's negative. The EU position is also negative towards us. Your plan is to call their bluff, you'll find that there was no bluff to be called - they laid out their positions and we simply chose to ignore them. It's la-la land again from Brexiters.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Why.?..if she says £50m gross..... then that is the truth......you do know what gross means? ..... she didn't say gross anyway... she quoted correctly that we pay more than 53m per day into the EU....

Igonoring your infantile challenge on my knowledge of gross, she is either inept in not knowing we get a good chunk back or she is trying to mislead people for her own cause. Either way for me tha undermines her wider case

 

[pastafarian]

I am fairly confident that the EU will add these stipulations to our trade agreement. "The package of stopping free movement, but remaining in the single market and being free to liberalise the [EU’s] external tariff seems to be pie in the sky
Professor Nick Crafts of Warwick University" https://next.ft.com/content/70d0bfd8-d1b3-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

i can take bits from the article i agree with as well



But economics cannot predict what will happen if Britain leaves the EU.

They are also more likely than many politicians to play down the importance of sovereignty

Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School argues that: “In the long term, Brexit will herald a major growth-boosting period

freeing Britain from the EU influence that “prevents the UK from taking full advantage of a surging global economy [and] capitalising on its unrivalled influence throughout the rest of the world”.

Ruth Lea, adviser to Arbuthnot Securities, argues that being outside the EU’s single market need not be a serious concern. “Trade with World Trade Organisation rules is not disastrous,” Ms Lea says, referring to the rules that underpin global commerce. “A lot of EU trade is done on these rules.”



You never did reply as to how The US is going to sell to its citizens the conditions of free movement,less sovereignty,subservience to EU law and a membership fee to the EU that are apparently attached to a deal if a country wishes to free trade with the EU.

 

[brighton fella]

If the vote is Remain it will be the following choice

Go with the current party that likes British people, is Eurosceptic and does nothing about immigration
or
Go with the party that hates British people, supports the EU and will never do anything about immigration

i reckon it wont be only me who wont be voting again either, i reckon the vast majority wont.

when will this country wake the f*ck up, if by choosing to remain in this sh*thole it means we are depriving our kids of their inheritance. ...democracy.

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[Hampster Gull]

If the vote is out the left are going to really struggle to gain power. The Scots will leave, the Welsh will follow a decade or two later and we will have england voting right or centre with the labour heartlands shrinking. I would be very worried if i was on the left

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

if YES wins this referendum then never again after june 23rd shall i bother to vote again. what is the point...
general elections will be totally meaningless and a complete waste of time, for what it is worth you may as well scrap parliament completely and do away with it's many mp's for what good they could ever achieve.. what f*cking use are they to us if their hands are tied to the EU and the voice of the british people counts for sweet f*ck all. :total waste of money.
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...

You can't get much fairer, or much more democratic, than the upcoming incredibly simple in-out referendum. So what you're basically saying is you're a bad, no very bad, loser?

 

[drew]

i can take bits from the article i agree with as well



But economics cannot predict what will happen if Britain leaves the EU.

They are also more likely than many politicians to play down the importance of sovereignty

Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School argues that: “In the long term, Brexit will herald a major growth-boosting period

freeing Britain from the EU influence that “prevents the UK from taking full advantage of a surging global economy [and] capitalising on its unrivalled influence throughout the rest of the world”.

Ruth Lea, adviser to Arbuthnot Securities, argues that being outside the EU’s single market need not be a serious concern. “Trade with World Trade Organisation rules is not disastrous,” Ms Lea says, referring to the rules that underpin global commerce. “A lot of EU trade is done on these rules.”



You never did reply as to how The US is going to sell to its citizens the conditions of free movement,less sovereignty,subservience to EU law and a membership fee to the EU that are apparently attached to a deal if a country wishes to free trade with the EU.

Is the global economy surging?

 

[drew]

I am fairly confident that the EU will add these stipulations to our trade agreement. "The package of stopping free movement, but remaining in the single market and being free to liberalise the [EU’s] external tariff seems to be pie in the sky
Professor Nick Crafts of Warwick University" https://next.ft.com/content/70d0bfd8-d1b3-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

They may but we might not agree and have to pay higher tarrifs or fees. I mentioned other countries none of which have to allow free movement of labour to trade with the EU. There are plenty ot others around the world.

 

[drew]

If the vote is Remain it will be the following choice

Go with the current party that likes British people, is Eurosceptic and does nothing about immigration
or
Go with the party that hates British people, supports the EU and will never do anything about immigration

 

[Igzilla]

Is the global economy surging?

According to Osborne, it's not, hence he can start cutting even more services whilst ensuring his cronies get a few more tax breaks.

 

[Soulman]

As Andrew Neil stated "257,000 EU migrants came to Britain in year to Sept 2015. In same time 630,000 EU citizens registered for NI number. Why discrepancy?"

 

[pastafarian]

Is the global economy surging?

dont ask me,ask an economist

i doubt you will get a straight forward answer though