[Politics] The Mail Woke List…..

[Bakero]

Our society is obsessed with categorising people. There is so much insecurity out there that many do not feel comfortable unless they can pin a label on someone. They feel they know everything about them once they define them. It is not acceptable to sit somewhere in the middle and have no affiliation to Left or Right or to be apolitical. There is a messianic drive to attach to causes, which become cults. Recent generations now see life through polarised lenses. Its our viewpoint or nothing.
Our schools have moved more towards teaching children what to think rather than how to think. Debate now is shallow. When you can only see one point of view, what is the point in prolonging the discussion.
I still don't fully understand what ' woke ' is. What it means. What it represents. I guess its purpose is to categorise certain people. Neat and tidy. We know what you stand for and we pity you, you poor misguided soul. We know best. Its pack mentality and its only heading in one direction.
The education system has failed successive generations. ( Thank you Anthony Crosland ) and our kids are pulled apart by social media influence.
Perhaps someone can give me an accurate definition, not generalised, of ' woke ' and then I might be able to understand its usage. Then again, probably not, as I am still trying to get my head around cricket being labelled ' institutionally racist '

You seem to have fallen into the trap of categorising people, Mo.

Recent generations = narrow-minded
Teachers = brainwashers
Society at large = insecure, shallow and polarised

I take issue with most of that but also sense we've become increasingly polarised in recent years. Our tribal instincts mean we're predisposed to in-group thinking and defining ourselves against the other side. When I make a humorous comment on a thread line this I'm effectively nailing my colours to the mast, knowing a like-minded individual will give me a thumbs up.

Big issues like Brexit have added fuel to the divisions we see today though, and the fires are continually stoked by the likes of the Mail's unabated othering. Ezra Klein's book on polarisation mentions a political ad from 2004 in which a couple, played by actors, are asked what they think of Howard Dean:

“Well,” says the husband , “I think Howard Dean should take his tax-hiking, government-expanding, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New York Times-reading....” - in steps the wife - " body-piercing, Hollywood-loving, left-wing freak show back to Vermont, where it belongs.”

You can see where Suella "tofu-eating wokerati" Braverman and Mark "Negroni-swilling establishment" Dolan get their inspiration from.

All considered, I'm not sure if the UK is more polarised than in the past or if it's just amplified by certain politicians, publications and social media. I don't get such an impression of a divided nation when I'm out in the real world.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Thank you for your intelligent post.

The pigeon-holing, slurs, you’re with us or an enemy …. comes from both the left and right. Exemplified by the culture wars.

It is possible to not join in and be a far happier person. Don’t do twatter, comments sections on newspaper sites, Mail/Mirror/Scum, be wary/steer clear of skewed opinionated pieces on Guardian/Telegraph, be open minded and do your own research to something call “facts” (courtesy of IFS, ONS etc).

The opinion pieces in the Guardian/Telegraph or any other paper aren't the major issue with those papers in my view - you can at least see it's somebody's opinion.
It's the way that they report the same stories but with a slightly different slant that's more insidious.
To give a trivial example from the Guardian (since I recently cancelled my Times subscription), the other day they reported a story about a batch of cider produced by Jeremy Clarkson's farm needing to be disposed of due to a safety concern over the bottles. (Apparently some had over fermented and could explode).
Quite why this needed a couple of paragraphs tagged on the end listing various controversies Clarkson's been involved in escaped me. This was left out of reports of the same story I saw elsewhere.

 

[jcdenton08]

“Woke” is a rubbish term, because it penalises forward-thinking people who simply want equality, and couples them indiscriminately with social justice warrior nutters who live full-time on Twitter (sorry, “X”).

Here is one example I’ve witnessed personally, one tiny example okay, I am not attempting to prove anything other than the hypocrisy from both sides whenever views get extreme.

The Little Mermaid cast a black actress to play Ariel, who is white in previous depictions. She is also a singing mermaid who is best friends with a singing crab. This was considered “woke” and caused a backlash with people claiming she was only cast for her race, and it wasn’t going to be the same. It’s about a f***ing singing fish woman.

Cleopatra, a show about a real life Egyptian queen, cast a black actress to the titular role - and was heavily criticised for racially insensitive casting by a great many more people. A Twitter backlash then followed for what was a fair criticism - for perceived racism against black people.

The problems arise when everyone is trying to one-up each other on how “woke” (ugh) they are; and scoring points with their self-congratulatory moral superiority.

And Twitter and TikTok have a huge responsibility for this.

 

[The Clamp]

News flash, there's lots of racists within the "woke" mob too.

You have said this a number of times. Can you name some? Or indeed lots?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

OK mate

That you don't know that many of these "woke" types despise people like you is funny.

Not for any other reason that you happen to be some old white guy. Welcome to 2023.

 

[The Clamp]

News flash, there's lots of racists within the "woke" mob too.

Can you name them?

 

[jcdenton08]

You have said this a number of times. Can you name some? Or indeed lots?

Erm, I actually can on this one.

Racism is defined as “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.”

There is an uncomfortably large number of people in black communities who truly understand racism to be “prejudice against black people”. Indeed I have seen numerous videos/posts/comments where people have said exactly that, or quite literally “black people can’t be racist”. Now, the reason I am mentioning black people in this example is because of BLM, which was huge as a social justice movement alongside the likes of MeToo.

A much more specific and personal example was the casting of a trans performer playing a female part in a recent production of “Legally Blonde: The Musical” at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre. The performer in question got very poor reviews due to being miscast and unable to sing the score as written, and proceeded to say “I don’t care what a bunch of straight/white people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s for all the queer people and people of colour”.

Now, it goes without saying if a performer came out and said “I don’t care what a bunch of gay/black people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s all for the straight people and white people” they would be sacked. From the show, by their agent, and probably have their social media shut down too. They would be “cancelled”.

 

[Weststander]

The opinion pieces in the Guardian/Telegraph or any other paper aren't the major issue with those papers in my view - you can at least see it's somebody's opinion.
It's the way that they report the same stories but with a slightly different slant that's more insidious.
To give a trivial example from the Guardian (since I recently cancelled my Times subscription), the other day they reported a story about a batch of cider produced by Jeremy Clarkson's farm needing to be disposed of due to a safety concern over the bottles. (Apparently some had over fermented and could explode).
Quite why this needed a couple of paragraphs tagged on the end listing various controversies Clarkson's been involved in escaped me. This was left out of reports of the same story I saw elsewhere.

That it is very true. Also the selection of stories .... the Guardian would have a phalanx of stories daily on how the UK is an awful place to live post May 2010, the Telegraph on the evils of Inheritance Tax, taxes in general.

Thankfully for me I have an independent spirit and some nouse to see through that, even laugh at that. Not said arrogantly, I have faith that 10m's of others have too.

They're the politically quiet or private ones, not barking their tunnel vision hate all day long on social media.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Erm, I actually can on this one.

Racism is defined as “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.”

There is an uncomfortably large number of people in black communities who truly understand racism to be “prejudice against black people”. Indeed I have seen numerous videos/posts/comments where people have said exactly that, or quite literally “black people can’t be racist”. Now, the reason I am mentioning black people in this example is because of BLM, which was huge as a social justice movement alongside the likes of MeToo.

A much more specific and personal example was the casting of a trans performer playing a female part in a recent production of “Legally Blonde: The Musical” at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre. The performer in question got very poor reviews due to being miscast and unable to sing the score as written, and proceeded to say “I don’t care what a bunch of straight/white people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s for all the queer people and people of colour”.

Now, it goes without saying if a performer came out and said “I don’t care what a bunch of gay/black people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s all for the straight people and white people” they would be sacked. From the show, by their agent, and probably have their social media shut down too. They would be “cancelled”.

And to circle back to the point, none of these are in the Mail's "woke list" which seems to mostly consist of upper middle class white people.

 

[jcdenton08]

And to circle back to the point, none of these are in the Mail's "woke list" which seems to mostly consist of upper middle class white people.

Which is why…

This is just an angle of attack from a desperate Conservative Party, through one of their mouthpieces in the media. We’ll be seeing a lot of this tactic in other Tory media, deflection from the key issues.

 

[Machiavelli]

A range of views is always welcome. What makes you think Churchill was not a white supremacist?

Comments like ""I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place" are a bit white supremacist, aren't they?

What do mean Lineker was "born Woke"? What is woke in your opinion?

Awaits convincing response ...

 

[Machiavelli]

Both have opinion columns. But when it comes to news the Guardian is a serious publisher, the Mail just prints hate filled drivel and acts as a Government propaganda arm.

Not in about a year's time, it doesn't

 

[BBassic]

Well this is all very depressing on a drab Monday morning.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You have said this a number of times. Can you name some? Or indeed lots?

A fantastic writer and mind wrote about it.

Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America

In his new book, John McWhorter argues that a neoracism, disguised as antiracism, is hurting Black communities in this country. According to McWhorter, the problem is that a well-meaning but pernicious form of antiracism has become, not a progressive ideology, but a religion. In Woke Racism...

news.columbia.edu

 

[Thunder Bolt]

“Woke” is a rubbish term, because it penalises forward-thinking people who simply want equality, and couples them indiscriminately with social justice warrior nutters who live full-time on Twitter (sorry, “X”).

Here is one example I’ve witnessed personally, one tiny example okay, I am not attempting to prove anything other than the hypocrisy from both sides whenever views get extreme.

The Little Mermaid cast a black actress to play Ariel, who is white in previous depictions. She is also a singing mermaid who is best friends with a singing crab. This was considered “woke” and caused a backlash with people claiming she was only cast for her race, and it wasn’t going to be the same. It’s about a f***ing singing fish woman.

Cleopatra, a show about a real life Egyptian queen, cast a black actress to the titular role - and was heavily criticised for racially insensitive casting by a great many more people. A Twitter backlash then followed for what was a fair criticism - for perceived racism against black people.

The problems arise when everyone is trying to one-up each other on how “woke” (ugh) they are; and scoring points with their self-congratulatory moral superiority.

And Twitter and TikTok have a huge responsibility for this.

A pedant writes Queen Cleopatra was predominately Greek.

. Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as essentially of Macedonian Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry. This is based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family – the Ptolemaic dynasty – had intermarried with the Macedonian Greek Seleucid dynasty that ruled over much of West Asia.

 

[Questions]

If you care nowadays they throw you in prison.
Yeah actual prison.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Take your news from multiple sources, including those you might instinctively diagree with. You will find the truth between the lines. The Guardian is certainly not accurate or impartial either.

No. Cos it's woke.

If you try to read between the lines all you'll find is whitespace.

The trick is to look for substantiated evidence. If a source can be shown to have repeatedly lied, or twisted facts into a perverse narrative, and then failed to acknowledge this, then they are not worth reading. This applies to one of the two papers in question. I will give you a clue, since you like reading between lines: it isn't the Grauniad.

 

[Machiavelli]

It’s also becoming a term for those who believe in climate change and that we should take action to stop it.

‘Change’ is the thing that frightens the right wing. They see that ‘woke’ is all about change. They don’t like it one bit.

I beg to differ. Conservatives are concerned about change, rather than against it. Thatcher changed things. The rampant right that we've been afflicted with over the past decade or so also embrace change: they want to change things back to a century or two ago when the sun never set on the Empire, patriarchy ruled supreme, children worked down the pit, there were no weekends, holidays, maternity leave let alone paternity leave, ...
It's why the Minister for the Eighteenth Century is their cheerleader supreme.

 

[jcdenton08]

A pedant writes Queen Cleopatra was predominately Greek.

. Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as essentially of Macedonian Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry. This is based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family – the Ptolemaic dynasty – had intermarried with the Macedonian Greek Seleucid dynasty that ruled over much of West Asia.

Either way, she wasn’t Afro-Caribbean…

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No I am not the editor but what I wrote is correct. Its important to have views on both sides don't you think? or is the opinion of the left the only relevant one?

Why is it important to have 'views' that are left and right? I am not interested in the 'views' of left or right wing journalists when considering how to interpret facts.

Consider this. It is a fact the Johnson lied to parliament. Why is it important to have a left wing 'view' that this was bad, and a right wing 'view' that this was actually all OK?