[Albion] The Great Albion Midfield Rebuild - Summer ‘24 edition

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Gruda is coming. Fear not.

Baleba - Gruda - Wieffer

That is a massive upgrade on

Gross - Gimour - Lallana

I hope you're right and it's quite possible that you are.

But until I agree that Pascal etc have been upgraded on, I would want to see more than just highlights reels. You know they don't show the ones they shank or the times they tread on the ball in those right?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

When I see stuff like this, I find it further flabbergasting that some people seriously think we don’t need to sign a replacement who has a similar profile to Gross.

 

[Gabbiano]

When I see stuff like this, I find it further flabbergasting that some people seriously think we don’t need to sign a replacement who has a similar profile to Gross.

The role that Gross plays will have to be split between multiple players. Players as skilled AND adaptable as Gross are incredibly rare, and any who are already "proven" (as is the buzzword on here) will cost a fortune.

If you can suggest a replacement who can do everything Gross does, is affordable, available and would want to come to Brighton, then we're all set.

The system will change under Hurzeler, roles will change. We have a great number of players who can, between them, cover all our midfield needs, in my opinion. Or at the very least to the extent that it is not our highest priority squad gap.

The only way we get a Gross 2.0 is by developing one ourselves. Maybe that's Hinshelwood, who knows?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

The role that Gross plays will have to be split between multiple players. Players as skilled AND adaptable as Gross are incredibly rare, and any who are already "proven" (as is the buzzword on here) will cost a fortune.

If you can suggest a replacement who can do everything Gross does, is affordable, available and would want to come to Brighton, then we're all set.

The system will change under Hurzeler, roles will change. We have a great number of players who can, between them, cover all our midfield needs, in my opinion. Or at the very least to the extent that it is not our highest priority squad gap.

The only way we get a Gross 2.0 is by developing one ourselves. Maybe that's Hinshelwood, who knows?

Sigh. The name someone argument is a pretty lame on, isn’t it?

You’re right in that we won’t be able to find someone who can cover all the bases that Pascal did, and that’s because Groß himself developed those many roles over his time here. However there will be plenty of players out there who can cover the central and attacking profile that he leaves behind. Not to mention what he brought in his leadership, experience, mentality and injury record.

I’m pretty certain the club agree given that we’ve tried to sign Dewsbury-Hall and Ferdi Kadioglu (there’s your suggestion if you need one). There’s no way those were/are intended signings to play alongside Groß.

Hinshelwood maybe. Buononatte maybe. Both need a serious amount of developing still and should not be his replacement.

How do you think what’s in the squad covers what Pascal leaves? I am genuinely interested!

 

[Han Solo]

When I see stuff like this, I find it further flabbergasting that some people seriously think we don’t need to sign a replacement who has a similar profile to Gross.

As Paul the Barberian etc. has said "a few times", succession planning is a thing, and we've signed multiple players with similar/other qualities. Of course you can't get an exact replica.

We didn't sign Buonanotte to sit and wait for his chance through two generation of players. Same goes for the NSC desire for "another experienced midfielder". We sign young players to gradually school them in and then hopefully they turn into starters. The pathway we probably sold to Buonanotte was "our creative midfielder Lallana and Gross are old and this is your way to the first team".

How could players like Alexis and Caicedo have reached their potential if we bought a new Pröpper and a new Biss rather than allowing these players to grow (in Alexis case) or fly (Caicedo) into action? How does Ben White get sold for £50m if we replace Shane Duffy with another Shane Duffy rather than giving Ben the chance?

 

[severnside gull]

I've heard credible sources say they made a bid that was turned down, and I've heard fecking Paul Barber himself saying they don't want to sell Billy, which is a rare statement.

Very little indicates to me that Billy will be joining Napoli. All I see is agents pushing the lukewarm interest of Napoli in order to fatten up a new contract. If they wanted him, they would have paid more, if we wanted the sale, we wouldn't put Barber in front of a camera being transparent both about the bid and our wish to keep him - any serious negotiation would happen behind locked doors.

I'm 83% certain Billy will be around for the next season.

I think you are reading different reports or maybe missing or somehow differently interpreting much of the reporting that I’m seeing. I’d lay a small bet that WBG moves on in this window or the next.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

As Paul the Barberian etc. has said "a few times", succession planning is a thing, and we've signed multiple players with similar/other qualities. Of course you can't get an exact replica.

We didn't sign Buonanotte to sit and wait for his chance through two generation of players. Same goes for the NSC desire for "another experienced midfielder". We sign young players to gradually school them in and then hopefully they turn into starters. The pathway we probably sold to Buonanotte was "our creative midfielder Lallana and Gross are old and this is your way to the first team".

How could players like Alexis and Caicedo have reached their potential if we bought a new Pröpper and a new Biss rather than allowing these players to grow (in Alexis case) or fly (Caicedo) into action? How does Ben White get sold for £50m if we replace Shane Duffy with another Shane Duffy rather than giving Ben the chance?

It is a thing yes and sometimes it goes wrong or sometimes the succession isn’t ready yet for the aims of the squad. The succession into Alexis and Caicedo was when the expectations were to stumble around in lower mid table. The expectations now are to be in the top half and maybe push for Europe again, therefore the clubs succession planning will have to include signing slightly more established players when a very significant player leaves.

Buononatte is definitely on the pathway, but he can not be starting regularly as one of our midfield options next year. In and out the side still learning from a more experienced pro in his position? Absolutely yes. This is why the club have tried to sign KDH and Ferdi.

 

[Han Solo]

It is a thing yes and sometimes it goes wrong or sometimes the succession isn’t ready yet for the aims of the squad. The succession into Alexis and Caicedo was when the expectations were to stumble around in lower mid table. The expectations now are to be in the top half and maybe push for Europe again, therefore the clubs succession planning will have to include signing slightly more established players when a very significant player leaves.

Buononatte is definitely on the pathway, but he can not be starting regularly as one of our midfield options next year. In and out the side still learning from a more experienced pro in his position? Absolutely yes. This is why the club have tried to sign KDH and Ferdi.

The expectations are a result of the model of buying young players and turning them into top players, like the vast majority of good players we've had the last few years. The model works on and off the pitch. Players like Tross, Alexis, Caicedo and so forth came as nobodys and left as top players.

Last summer we made an exception, probably to try and please Roberto (mistake). We signed three ESTABLISHED players in Igor, Dahoud and Fati and it turned out they weren't magically better than everyone else just because of their experience and (in two cases) prime age.

People can hope for "experienced players" all they want.. Club is more interested in buying good players. Anyone hoping for some 25-year-old or 30-year-old to come and replace Gross are going to get disappointed.

 

[Gabbiano]

Sigh. The name someone argument is a pretty lame on, isn’t it?

You’re right in that we won’t be able to find someone who can cover all the bases that Pascal did, and that’s because Groß himself developed those many roles over his time here. However there will be plenty of players out there who can cover the central and attacking profile that he leaves behind. Not to mention what he brought in his leadership, experience, mentality and injury record.

I’m pretty certain the club agree given that we’ve tried to sign Dewsbury-Hall and Ferdi Kadioglu (there’s your suggestion if you need one). There’s no way those were/are intended signings to play alongside Groß.

Hinshelwood maybe. Buononatte maybe. Both need a serious amount of developing still and should not be his replacement.

How do you think what’s in the squad covers what Pascal leaves? I am genuinely interested!

Fair enough, "name someone" was a bit of lazy hyperbole from me. Kadioglu is probably the most realistic option out there, but I'm skeptical that we will land him given the price Fenerbahce want and the rumoured competition from the rich 6. That would also solve our RB issue.

In terms of creative attacking midfield options, Enciso, Buonanotte, maybe Sarmiento, Joao Pedro at a push, can do that role. That's also the role Gomez is being brought in to do. Wieffer and Baleba cover the more physical deeper role but can also move box to box.

The intricate passing and ball movement out of defence (Gilmour's speciality) hasn't yet been replaced, but it seems that under Hurzeler the build up will be much quicker and more reliant on the wingers.

Gross's ability to cover the wings isn't needed now we have 100 wingers. The full back cover, yes is still needed.

I wouldn't say no to someone like Gruda at the right price, but not if it meant we cheaped out on a RB or improvement on Igor at LCB

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Fair enough, "name someone" was a bit of lazy hyperbole from me. Kadioglu is probably the most realistic option out there, but I'm skeptical that we will land him given the price Fenerbahce want and the rumoured competition from the rich 6. That would also solve our RB issue.

In terms of creative attacking midfield options, Enciso, Buonanotte, maybe Sarmiento, Joao Pedro at a push, can do that role. That's also the role Gomez is being brought in to do. Wieffer and Baleba cover the more physical deeper role but can also move box to box.

The intricate passing and ball movement out of defence (Gilmour's speciality) hasn't yet been replaced, but it seems that under Hurzeler the build up will be much quicker and more reliant on the wingers.

Gross's ability to cover the wings isn't needed now we have 100 wingers. The full back cover, yes is still needed.

I wouldn't say no to someone like Gruda at the right price, but not if it meant we cheaped out on a RB or improvement on Igor at LCB

I get the feeling that Yalcouye could fill WBG's place if required.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

The expectations are a result of the model of buying young players and turning them into top players, like the vast majority of good players we've had the last few years. The model works on and off the pitch. Players like Tross, Alexis, Caicedo and so forth came as nobodys and left as top players.

Last summer we made an exception, probably to try and please Roberto (mistake). We signed three ESTABLISHED players in Igor, Dahoud and Fati and it turned out they weren't magically better than everyone else just because of their experience and (in two cases) prime age.

People can hope for "experienced players" all they want.. Club is more interested in buying good players. Anyone hoping for some 25-year-old or 30-year-old to come and replace Gross are going to get disappointed.

The club had been after Dahoud before RDZ got here so I assume he must’ve been showing up on the database. Igor felt like a panic option because we didn’t get Colwill. RDZ got Fati because Kudus went to West Ham.

The model has to be tweaked slightly if PB/TB do have genuine consistent top 10 or pushing for Europe aspirations.

This summer instead of Dahoud, Igor and Fati, if we end up with Wieffer, Minteh + Gross replacement, it’ll be a sign they’ve tried to move on the model a bit.

I notice you haven’t addressed the fact the club have tried to sign KDH/Ferdi. Is that not evidence they’re looking for someone to fill some of Gross’s void?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

In terms of creative attacking midfield options, Enciso, Buonanotte, maybe Sarmiento, Joao Pedro at a push, can do that role.

The intricate passing and ball movement out of defence (Gilmour's speciality) hasn't yet been replaced, but it seems that under Hurzeler the build up will be much quicker and more reliant on the wingers.

Unfortunately none of those guys have the tactical intelligence, off the ball movement, precision of passing, stamina, out of possession press or the ability to shift from a cm position to an am position. They’re not really suited to that first phase/second phase build-up area. Only really suited to the final third (bar perhaps Buononatte).

 

[Han Solo]

The club had been after Dahoud before RDZ got here so I assume must’ve been showing up the database. Igor felt like a panic option because we didn’t get Colwill. RDZ got Fati because Kudus went to West Ham.

The model has to be tweaked slightly if PB/TB do have genuine consistent top 10 or pushing for Europe aspirations.

This summer instead of Dahoud, Igor and Fati, if we end up with Weiffer, Minteh + Gross replacement, it’ll be a sign they’ve tried to move on the model a bit.

I notice you haven’t addressed the fact the club have tried to sign KDH/Ferdi. Is that not evidence they’re looking for someone to fill some of Gross’s void?

I don't think you're right about Dahoud but hey ho. Point remains regardless of how much you want to move the goal posts: the club signed experienced, established players like some people wanted and the outcome was no better than when the club signed "great we're gonna send him on loan and never see him again" players.

So far this summer, the signings are back to the model. There's no "moving on the model", we're buying relatively cheap young players and going with it.

I consider Ferdi a (primarly) right back who the club would have chased with or without Gross going anywhere. As for KDH, we signed Wieffer instead.

Traditionally (well, in the last five years), Brighton are done with most of the incoming business once we enter the final month of the transfer window. I would be VERY surprised if more than 2 new first team players arrive, and imho they are a lot more likely to be CB and RB than anything midfield or forward.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

It is probably worth considering, when judging last summers business, that we also signed players with European experience which isn't something the algorithm has had to work with before.

At least we don't have that problem this summer.

Personally, i think any more ins will be defensive, although it wouldn't surprise me if we got in another creator who isn't a winger. I have a feeling that it won't be long before Enciso's head is turned so we'll want some succession options in that area beyond Buonanotte who is already being linked with a move away.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I don't think you're right about Dahoud but hey ho. Point remains regardless of how much you want to move the goal posts: the club signed experienced, established players like some people wanted and the outcome was no better than when the club signed "great we're gonna send him on loan and never see him again" players.

So far this summer, the signings are back to the model. There's no "moving on the model", we're buying relatively cheap young players and going with it.

I consider Ferdi a (primarly) right back who the club would have chased with or without Gross going anywhere. As for KDH, we signed Wieffer instead.

Traditionally (well, in the last five years), Brighton are done with most of the incoming business once we enter the final month of the transfer window. I would be VERY surprised if more than 2 new first team players arrive, and imho they are a lot more likely to be CB and RB than anything midfield or forward.

I think you’re stretching the definition of established, experienced players with Igor and Fati. Or at least deliberately missing the context in which they were signed, which was not as established, experienced players expected to be in the first XI every week.

Fair enough if you think Ferdi would be signed as a right back but I suspect it’s far more about his ability to play in many of the other positions Gross could fill, rather than primarily as an rb. As for Wieffer instead of KDH - totally different profiles, not buying that one at all.

 

[ewe2]

IMO Encisco if he has a good season will seek Manchester city(or Chelsea)…..

 

[Hugo Rune]

I've heard credible sources say they made a bid that was turned down, and I've heard fecking Paul Barber himself saying they don't want to sell Billy, which is a rare statement.

Very little indicates to me that Billy will be joining Napoli. All I see is agents pushing the lukewarm interest of Napoli in order to fatten up a new contract. If they wanted him, they would have paid more, if we wanted the sale, we wouldn't put Barber in front of a camera being transparent both about the bid and our wish to keep him - any serious negotiation would happen behind locked doors.

I'm 83% certain Billy will be around for the next season.

What an astonishing coincidence!

You won’t believe this (Han looks down at his blunt and thinks ‘what the hell have I put into this’), but I’m exactly 83% certain too!

Certain this incoming bid will be accepted:



Calciomercato @sscnapoli : after the exit of one of #Gaetano and #Cajuste , for the midfield everything is on #Gilmour with a new offer of around 12 million plus bonuses.

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

What an astonishing coincidence!

You won’t believe this (Han looks down at his blunt and thinks ‘what the hell have I put into this’), but I’m exactly 83% certain too!

Certain this incoming bid will be accepted:



Calciomercato @sscnapoli : after the exit of one of #Gaetano and #Cajuste , for the midfield everything is on #Gilmour with a new offer of around 12 million plus bonuses.

Ah. And Andy Naylor thinks a bid in the region of 12m will be enough. Oh dear.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Ah. And Andy Naylor thinks a bid in the region of 12m will be enough. Oh dear.

Square peg in a round hole for me.

I think Gilmour is absolute quality at what he does but not a player Hürzeler would find much use for.

 

[GT49er]

Square peg in a round hole for me.

I think Gilmour is absolute quality at what he does but not a player Hürzeler would find much use for.

Perhaps the job of a really top manager involves finding square holes..........